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Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

codinghorror.com

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Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#51

Post by RobAley »

leothekim wrote: post #25

PHP got Facebook up and running, so it has that to its credit. And that's a huge credit. As a result, Facebook engineers developed things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HipHop_for_PHP Which is an impressive piece of technology, but makes you wonder if Facebook engineers wish their website wasn't written in PHP.

Possibly, but its possible that if another language had been chosen, it may still be languishing as some half-finished forgotten project somewhere and those engineers would never have gotten their jobs!

Who knows...

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#52

Post by Isofarro »

anthonyb wrote: post #12

Oh great. Another PHP article, where we get to watch all of the defenders of Rasmussen's misbegotten spawn come out from under their rocks... "PHP works great for me! It runs tons of websites! I don't know what you're complaining about..." To address the article's point somewhat - there are already easy to deploy frameworks and languages for the web, and everybody who cares about development is already using them.

Who's Rasmussen?

> there are already easy to deploy frameworks and languages for the web, and everybody who cares about development is already using them.

And yet, amongst your rhetoric, you've conveniently managed to name none of them. Is this an appeal to the silent majority?

I'm convinced that there are really good developers out there who just keep building great products in PHP. Good developers write good code largely irrespective of the language. The code is a mere artificial interface between the developer and the machine.

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#53

Post by cooldeal »

Loic wrote: post #40

From the post: > build compelling alternatives and make sure these alternatives are equally pervasive, as easy to set up and use as possible. A bite later: > We've got a long way to go. [...] The best way to fix the PHP problem at this point is to make the alternatives so outstanding that the choice of the better hammer becomes obvious. Basically, Jeff just agreed that PHP is simply better than the rest. The problem…

>..my brother, without programming knowledge.. > He never complained about the "awfulness of PHP".

As the article states, if all you know to use is a double clawed hammer, it looks like the best tool for the job.

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#54

Post by cageface »

Loic wrote: post #40

From the post: > build compelling alternatives and make sure these alternatives are equally pervasive, as easy to set up and use as possible. A bite later: > We've got a long way to go. [...] The best way to fix the PHP problem at this point is to make the alternatives so outstanding that the choice of the better hammer becomes obvious. Basically, Jeff just agreed that PHP is simply better than the rest. The problem…

Basically, Jeff just agreed that PHP is simply better than the rest.

Easier != better. Nice try.

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#56

Post by yoklov »

iwejfweoifjweif wrote: post #42
kator wrote: post #35

I've been coding for nearly 30 years and have seen this rant for every major language I've coded in. The reality is there is no perfect tool even in construction as Jeff tries to draw parallels to you will find that many different tools are required for many different situations. Often a hammer can be used to make a hole in a wall and other times you use a saw to cut a nail head off and just pound it into the wall be…

Why is python or ruby too hard for your dad to learn? If anything I would think something like ruby would be even easier than php since things are a bit more consistent. I just don't see how PHP is more approachable, especially compared to the supposed ease of ruby on rails.

Err, I love Rails and all, but don't confuse ease of use with ease of learning. The thing about putting convention over configuration is that you have to learn a lot of conventions.

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#57

Post by RobAley »

Produce wrote: post #19

PHP is broken in many little aspects but if you use a high quality framework, it's quite enjoyable to work with. The main gripes I have with it are in the details, like: You can't do: $something->doStuff()[0] if(empty($something->doStuff())) Overload fucking functions. Fuck. What sucks: The namespace separator. The naming conventions of the core functions. The speed. But, overall it works and elegant solutions can be…

Speed isn't an issue, at least in my experience, compared to similar languages. Raw PHP usually beats Rails handsdown, and most PHP frameworks are usually comparable. PHP performance has increased markedly over the past few years, and particularly in v5.4. And if you really need a speed bump you can use the APC cache or HipHop compiler. Its never going to be as snappy as, say, C, but in the class of languages its in these days it holds it head up high.

I like the namespace separator, but I'll accept I’m in the minority on that one.

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#58

Post by mmuro »

I just don't understand why this is a problem. If the goal of a web language is to build websites then JUST BUILD WEBSITES. Who honestly still gives a shit what you build it in?

If you are into .NET and build .NET sites, then cool. I work with a bunch of WordPress sites and WordPress uses PHP...so that's what I use. Until they decide to switch languages, I'm sticking with PHP. Until then, shut the fuck up and let me work without making me feel like an asshole for not conforming to your way of doing things.

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#59

Post by trebor »

kev009 wrote: post #15
bobsy wrote: post #5

Sorry Jeff. The only thing broken with PHP is you (and other people like you). How much PHP do you use Jeff? Lets assume none. How is PHP hurting you? I mean seriously, how much contact do you even have with PHP? PHP is easy to learn, easy to make websites with. There are a tonne of paying jobs which require PHP. PHP runs a lot of websites. I am a PHP developer. I prefer Python but my PHP job pays me just fine. There…

The "problem" is that PHP's popularity breeds more popularity, uninformed choice, and single-language programmers that only know PHP (a real tragedy!). Bashing PHP is in a serious sense a public service if it can reduce any of these outcomes.

I don't fit in your box. And I still think PHP is a decent language for introducing people to programming.

I've written web apps in: Ruby (both Rails and Sinatra), Javascript (Node.js with Express), PHP (my own framework, CodeIgniter, and eying Laravel), and been maintenance programmer for a C CGI application. I've written desktop and CLI apps in Object Pascal (Lazarus and Delphi), to CLI apps in Go, C++, and probably a few I've forgotten. I've done Object Oriented, Evented, and to some degree Functional programming. I am a polyglot programmer.

The problem is bashing PHP. As Jeff said, PHP's power is its ubiquity and its near omnipresence. It runs on just about any platform with any configuration, with almost perfect consistency. For the most part there's no switching extensions or libraries because of the OS. Develop wherever... deploy wherever... get almost an identical experience without lifting a finger.

In fact, I have great hope for the future of PHP with 5.3 and 5.4 as they (finally!) have added and improved upon the language, and have begun to cull deprecated features. The problem for PHP right now is twofold: web hosts refusing to upgrade in a timely fashion, and legacy codebases that refuse to be rewritten. Both these are demanding backward compatibility, and slowing the advance of PHP.

I'm tired of the bashing of PHP. Bashing, in general, is the absolute least effective way to communicate your point. At least Jeff Atwood is attempting to do something.

Re: Coding Horror: The PHP Singularity

#60

Post by mishkovski »

dasil003 wrote: post #29

The irony of this post is boundless. > Except now it's 2012, and fellow programmers are still writing long screeds bemoaning the awfulness of PHP! Yes, and not only did Jeff write one in 2008, but he wrote another one just now. You can't write 10 paragraphs about what a blight PHP is and then pretend like you're being constructive by admonishing us to create better tools. In fact what everyone is doing with these ran…

"Or what about the damage that proprietary platforms like .NET (which Jeff uses if I'm not mistaken) or iOS do to the programming world by restricting progress to a single company."

PHP is used for web development. Microsoft's best alternative for web development is ASP.NET MVC which is open source.

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