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XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

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Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not going to go away. Wayland is here to stay.

And so is X11. We are heading for a dual stack desktops. There are tons of expensive applications that target Linux _because_ of X11 and they will rather force users to switch OSes than get rewritten.

> And so is X11. We are heading for a dual stack desktops.

IMO, we're heading for "X11 over Wayland" desktops, in which the only X11 implementation is Xwayland. These expensive applications which target X11 will keep working, through that compatibility layer.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#142
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The application having the ability to change how the title bar works is an anti-feature for me.

On Wayland, the compositor can either let windows draw their own borders, or it can disallow it. On X11, if a window want's to draw its own decorations... it will just do it, and you won't be able to do anything about it. Pretty much every single Wayland compositor follows this except for GNOME, who refuse to do so. It causes problems with windows like Davinci Resolve who don't draw their own decos. This leaves some…

> This leaves some windows without any controls at all lol.

Don't all WMs have shortcut keys anyway?

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#143
post #59
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright I do use KDE those days. I have used XFCE before. I don't think I can believe that KDE is lighter in term of response/lag. I didn't check the ram usage because Firefox is taking it all anyways.

Auto Tab Discard [1] does wonders to Firefox RAM consumption if you open lots of tabs. Has the "recommended" badge. [1]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/auto-tab-disc...

Absolutely! It was a game changer for me. No more OOM with 16GB RAM

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

KDE is actually lighter. And hidpi is much better on Qt.

But unfortunately KDE is Wayland only now, so no way to turn the compositor off.

this statement is not correct. kde can do both x11 and wayland. checkout the arch-wiki (kde plasma wiki: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/KDE) to see how.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#145
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>X11 is basically already unsupported, pretty much all the developers moved to Wayland In my view, Wayland is basically unsupported. GNOME and KDE support it. XFCE, Lxqt, Mate, and Cinnamon don't. It's been over 10 years. You could make a whole DE from scratch in this time.

> XFCE, Lxqt, Mate, and Cinnamon don't. XFCE, Lxqt, Mate all have at least partial wayland support. Cinnamon has experimental support.

That's not support. That's support. If that counts, then X11 having legacy support counts as well.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck and thanks for all the work. XFCE has been my daily driver for a few years, the kind of tool that is so on point you forget it's there.

XFCE has been my preferred Unix desktop for like 20 years. Great software. Great mix of flexibility, modularity, ease of use, and good taste. I also thank the devs.

Before I went all in on i3 then Sway, XFCE was the cats pyjamas. Still is the dogs boxers as far as I am aware.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#147
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(uninformed outsider) have you considered reaching out to the System76 folks? They are also setting out doing a Wayland compositor for a (decreasingly) gtk-based desktop and are reasonably far along on this goal. I wonder if their compositor would suit your needs?

To me, at least, xfwm4's window management behavior is a big part of what makes Xfce... well, Xfce. So no, I don't think I'd consider using someone else's compositor.

To add a bit, hours later: I've been testing my Wayland support for the other components using Wayfire and Labwc, and honestly I find their window management incredibly frustrating. Part of it is just lack of familiarity, I'm sure, but honestly I just don't like how they do things.

A lot of xfwm4's behavior is windowing-independent, or fairly easy to put the windowing-specific calls behind interfaces. There's some of it that turns out to be pretty hard to untangle, which is where the real work is, but I think it's worthwhile work to take on.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#148
post #17

To be clear here, we don't have a compositor yet. I've done a little work on it, but it won't be usable for at least a year, maybe (probably) longer. 4.20 will let you run some of our components on another compositor. We mostly test with Wayfire and Labwc, as our compositor will also be using wlroots.

Until wlroots is statically linked into xfce compositor... you know, if we could avoid the mess of the bazillion of x11 libs all over again...

Not sure what you mean. Hopefully I'll be basing it on a released version of wlroots (or at least a non-released version that that will be released by the time I'm ready), which will be dynamically linked just like everything else.

And even if it isn't, and it's statically linked, so what? RAM is cheap and plentiful in most places these days, and if you're really upset about it you can build it yourself with --disable-wayland or whatever.

Anyway, the negativity is quite unnecessary and tiresome.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#149

Genuinely find XFCE the only pragmatic option when it comes to "no-fiddling-just-working-and-lightweight" WMs in Linux/BSD land - it's basically like a better Windows 2000 UI with sane defaults throughout. Thanks so much to the devs involved in keeping XFCE up to date. This is major good news.

KDE is actually lighter. And hidpi is much better on Qt.

Lighter I won't entirely disagree with: I think a default install of KDE will still be heavier than Xfce, but GTK3 isn't the lightest toolkit, and you can slim KDE down without losing much functionality.

But I don't get the HiDPI point? Certainly 4.16 had issues with HiDPI, but in 4.18 you can set the UI scaling factor, and I believe shortly before and/or after initial release, we fixed up all the issues of blurry image rendering. I have a HiDPI screen and it's worked very well for me, and looks nice.

Re: XFCE 4.20 aims to bring preliminary Wayland support

#150
post #35
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize, but unfortunately Tim Cook's stewardship of the Mac, from the embrace of soldered RAM and even storage throughout the Mac lineup, to the increasing annoyances of macOS either in the name of security (e.g., notarization, the popups that request permission to read user directories, which is really annoying when using LLVM's debugger in modern macOS) or to help advertise Apple's subscription services, have…

I'll be horribly blunt here but I don't give a shit about any of that any more. It's irrelevant which is why open source is a complete joke for most people. I, much as other users, just want my computer to solve the problems I ask of it, not turn into an activity in its own right or a maze of hosting problems and pain to get a simple task done. The job of the computer is to free us from slavery and everyone seems to…

> And that's what the community does't get: the last 20% is the hard bit

I think a lot of people in OSS do get that, but in many ways it's significantly harder to do that last 20% in an open source project than it is for a proprietary software company to do it.

But ultimately I don't care that much, honestly. If you don't get what you need out of open source, that's fine. You not using it isn't a problem for me or for my own open source work. As long as there are enough users to keep communities going and developers interested, that's all that matters.

> and the above is the last 20% and it has never even once in the history of OSS got anywhere even remotely near that.

That's provably false, and it's pretty annoying when people make uninformed absolutist statements like that.

> No one cares about the political purity and ideology behind it.

A lot of people do. No, not a majority, and maybe not even a largely sizeable minority, but it's very very far from "no one". If you don't, I guess that's fine. I hope your proprietary software continues to do what you need and want, and that your needs and interests continue to be aligned with what those software companies want to give you. That hasn't been true for me for a very long time now, but certainly people have different needs and different thresholds for it to matter. But if that changes, feel fortunate that all the work we've done will still be available for you to take advantage of.

> The job of the computer is to free us from slavery and everyone seems to have bloody well forgotten that.

Your use of the word "slavery" is a bit bizarre and overwrought, but it's funny you say something like this. Open source software is the only kind of software that's going to respect your freedom. Proprietary software never will. You're at the whims of its makers, and can never take control of your own computing destiny.

Like the sibling said, I guess that doesn't matter to you now. But maybe it will, someday, when the game changes yet again.

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