Linux from Scratch • Hacker News Board

Re: Linux from Scratch

#61

Post by pino82 » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 4:10 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #37

pushupentry1219 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in highschool I had a bunch of free time outside of school days. I used a YouTube guide to install Arch. I failed many many times. But in doing so I almost kind of learnt what each command was doing. I had the same experience when I installed Gentoo. In both cases at first I was copy/pasting commands, but through failure I ended up understanding a lot of what the commands did. And what someone else said be…

I wonder if the wiki would have been an easier start, than YouTube. YouTube is nice for learning things with a visual component, but installing Linux is all text, all the time. The ability to easily hop around and re-read sections on the wiki where necessary (I mean, jumping around is possible on YouTube of course, but it is really easy on the wiki) seem like it would be a big help.

Reading and actually understanding non-trivial text is hard if you are part of a generation that was never challenged to actually learn it. For those people, YouTube (and a few similar shops) are the default way to consume any content. That's what they do all the time. Sure, they somehow know those legacy emojis that you call the latin alphabet. It will just not lead to a deep understanding of text.

Another aspect is probably that watching YT clips always has a feeling of being part of something. Some movement, some bubble, some society, whatever. They don't install Arch bcs they want to learn sth, or make some use of the OS. They do it _because_ they found it on YT and they want to be part of it. Maybe they even write comments or make a 'reaction' video. Today it's Arch, tomorrow it's a special pizza recipe from that other guy on Insta. It doesn't really matter.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#62

Post by fefe23 » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 4:14 PM UTC

LFS has been a tremendous resource over the years for me. I'm happy it exists and that people put in the time to keep it going.

I often wonder why the existence of long "you also need to do this completely unintuitive thing first" documentation on the open internet isn't shaming more projects into reducing barriers to build their software.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#63

Post by dvno42 » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 4:18 PM UTC

Between LFS and Stage 1 and 2 Gentoo installs back in the early 2000s during High School, this gave me a big leg up in my journey of learning about computers and Linux. I can't thank those project maintainers enough for helping me get my footing at such a young age and peaking my interest in computing. I ended up printing out the LFS book in segments on one of the printers in High School and brought it home in pieces to use on the home computer.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#64

Post by stavros » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 4:33 PM UTC

Brian_K_White wrote: post #60

stavros wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a slog. It is a fun experience though! Aren't those two opposites?

You've never experienced effort as fun? That is... not flattering.

Effort, yes. Slog, no.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#65

Post by joezydeco » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

bubblesnort wrote: post #24

stingraycharles wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This basically allows you to make an OS that’s effectively a single application, right?

No. It creates a root filesystem that follows your choices of what should be included and tries to be as minimal and small as possible by default. Very suitable for embedded devices and lightweight virtual machines. You can have it build a kernel as well. I use the ability to create a cpio archive for an initramfs on the Linux boxes.

I use buildroot to make a commercial product.

It builds the bootloader, the kernel, initramfs and rootfs, and then my application(s) all installed in the right place and connected to systemd. The output is a set of images that burn into their respective partitions on eMMC.

If you're a masochist, there's also Yocto. It'll build your compiler and crosstools as well as the entire system image.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#66

Post by bee_rider » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 4:47 PM UTC

pino82 wrote: post #61

bee_rider wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the wiki would have been an easier start, than YouTube. YouTube is nice for learning things with a visual component, but installing Linux is all text, all the time. The ability to easily hop around and re-read sections on the wiki where necessary (I mean, jumping around is possible on YouTube of course, but it is really easy on the wiki) seem like it would be a big help.

Reading and actually understanding non-trivial text is hard if you are part of a generation that was never challenged to actually learn it. For those people, YouTube (and a few similar shops) are the default way to consume any content. That's what they do all the time. Sure, they somehow know those legacy emojis that you call the latin alphabet. It will just not lead to a deep understanding of text. Another aspect is…

I dunno. I’m a millennial so all sorts of stuff was just ascribed to my generation. As a result, I tend to just assume these differences are overstated.

I worked with college students fairly recently. They did often reach reflexively for video. But when the written material was good enough, they used it.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#67

Post by tehf0x » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

dvno42 wrote: post #63

Between LFS and Stage 1 and 2 Gentoo installs back in the early 2000s during High School, this gave me a big leg up in my journey of learning about computers and Linux. I can't thank those project maintainers enough for helping me get my footing at such a young age and peaking my interest in computing. I ended up printing out the LFS book in segments on one of the printers in High School and brought it home in pieces…

Amen to that! 20 years later this was my gateway drug into being addicted to computers and gave me my full stack understanding I still use every day at work. <3 Gentoo and the friendly geek at the coffee place I worked at when I was 14 who gave me my first hit and held my hand through what is effectively mental torture for most people

Re: Linux from Scratch

#68

Post by chgs » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 5:04 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #66

pino82 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading and actually understanding non-trivial text is hard if you are part of a generation that was never challenged to actually learn it. For those people, YouTube (and a few similar shops) are the default way to consume any content. That's what they do all the time. Sure, they somehow know those legacy emojis that you call the latin alphabet. It will just not lead to a deep understanding of text. Another aspect is…

I dunno. I’m a millennial so all sorts of stuff was just ascribed to my generation. As a result, I tend to just assume these differences are overstated. I worked with college students fairly recently. They did often reach reflexively for video. But when the written material was good enough, they used it.

Us millenials are old. My 43rd birthday is coming up fast.

College students are the next generation. Most millenials remember dialup or at most a time before mainstream streaming video. College students today have seen their formative years being constantly on with instant access to more material in any format they want than they could ever grasp the concept of.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#69

Post by oorza » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 5:22 PM UTC

dvno42 wrote: post #63

Between LFS and Stage 1 and 2 Gentoo installs back in the early 2000s during High School, this gave me a big leg up in my journey of learning about computers and Linux. I can't thank those project maintainers enough for helping me get my footing at such a young age and peaking my interest in computing. I ended up printing out the LFS book in segments on one of the printers in High School and brought it home in pieces…

> I ended up printing out the LFS book in segments on one of the printers in High School and brought it home in pieces to use on the home computer.

I am actually flabbergasted there's another human being on Earth that has this exact same story as me. I used one of those giant 3 ring legal binders for my printed copy, lmao.

Re: Linux from Scratch

#70

Post by oorza » Sat, Oct 05, 2024, 5:24 PM UTC

aflukasz wrote: post #53

sieste wrote: post #3

I really like the idea, really tried following the process several times. But each time it just turned into a copy-incomprehensible-commands-into-the-terminal exercise at some point, and I lost motivation. Did anyone experience the same?

It feels to me like you have approached this with a wrong mindset, like you focused too much on finishing the whole process. With LFS you must put substantial amount of value into the journey itself. It's not about copy-pasting commands, it's about trying to actually understand what and, more importantly, why your are doing each step. My recollection is that LFS docs were good in helping with that. Or maybe it was co…

LFS to a computer scientist should be like soap to a chemist. Something you can do as a fun, educational experiment, but not where you source a necessary tool for your life.