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Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

journals.plos.org

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Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#151

Post by bogtog »

tech_ken wrote: post #100
bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

> The authors' claims about BDNF are supported by a p-value of p = .046, and having main conclusions hinge on p-values of p > .01 usually means the conclusions are rubbish. Your other points I agree with but I actually think the BDNF result has some standing. I'm looking at Fig. 4 and just by an eyeball test there's clear difference in the distributions of the intra-individual BDNF increase. It's not like there's som…

I know nearly nothing about BDNF specifically. Whether it should motivate a follow-up is mostly only something known to the authors, as a p = .046 suggests a chance they may have tested numerous outcome variables and reported only one (e.g,. this could very well be 1/10). The fact that the p-value is almost comically close to p = .05, makes me suspect that this happened. Perhaps, if this goes in line with other BDNF research, then that could motivate it some further work.

Notably, even if we take this p = .046 as a given, and assume there was no p-hacking, then this type of result implies that statistical power is tiny, and a proper "bigger population" study would likely have to be several hundreds of people. Even a study with 50% power, should have a majority of significant results land p < .01.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#152

Post by bogtog »

zophiana wrote: post #43
bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

I agree that the sample size might be a bit small so it could be noise, but the study did went 6-month not 6-weeks. And there are findings like these https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Thanks, that sounds more reasonable. I'm still generally bearish on this type of brain-volume-change work (and extremely so on any study trying to compare brain-volume effects between different groups), but I guess 6-months is a finer premise.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#153

Post by bogtog »

aswegs8 wrote: post #144
bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

I lack the in-depth knowledge but correcting p-value thresholds for multiple hypotheses is very basic science. I doubt your criticism is valid given that some basic error like this would never pass peer review.

Correcting for p-values in brain imaging research is kinda elaborate, since you are essentially performing a t-test separately for each brain voxel. A brain image like the authors' will have about a million voxels (0.7 x 0.7 x 0.7 mm voxels). For multiple hypothesis correction, correcting for 1 million tests would be overly strict because neighboring voxels are highly correlated with one another, and it's unlikely for brain effects to really be confined to such a small area. Hence, researchers usually define a primary threshold for voxels (here p > some basic error like this would never pass peer review

It indeed shouldn't pass peer review! Yet, here we are. I think standards have gotten better since the paper's publication (2018), but there are no doubt there are still many reviewers who don't have a good intuition about what a significant cluster size should be. Off the top of my head, I can't give an exact number on the cluster size needed, but I'd be willing to bet a ton that what the authors used is not enough.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#154

Post by Notatheist »

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #135
bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

I have done lots of free-form couples dancing (over 20 years, several times per week, some of it in complex styles like argentine tango) and in my first-hand experience the major difference from other kinds of exercise is that you need to harmonize your movements with your partner and music, and you need to improvise. The complexity of the movement is not it, nor the "exercise". There is lots of other research sugges…

I'm a professional dancer and music and freestyle are the most demanding aspects of dance by far.

That said I'm also skeptical. Music and dance are being compared to "bicycle ergometers" and "training with equipment such as barbells and rubber bands". I'm pretty sure only one of these groups was having any fun. Unless the dance group were forced to social dance bachata in which case the misery probably evens out.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#155

Post by wvh »

I'm an avid trail runner, which requires a lot of (quoting another poster) balance, coordination and fluidity. How would dance differ from that? My mostly uneducated guess is that moving in lots of different ways, having lots of social contact and ensuring variety in what you eat just exercises the brain and body and challenges them to stay at peak performance, in balance and not atrophy.

Being a modern human being is about learning to fight comfort and energy conservation.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#156

Post by zemvpferreira »

Notatheist wrote: post #154
kukkeliskuu wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have done lots of free-form couples dancing (over 20 years, several times per week, some of it in complex styles like argentine tango) and in my first-hand experience the major difference from other kinds of exercise is that you need to harmonize your movements with your partner and music, and you need to improvise. The complexity of the movement is not it, nor the "exercise". There is lots of other research sugges…

I'm a professional dancer and music and freestyle are the most demanding aspects of dance by far. That said I'm also skeptical. Music and dance are being compared to "bicycle ergometers" and "training with equipment such as barbells and rubber bands". I'm pretty sure only one of these groups was having any fun. Unless the dance group were forced to social dance bachata in which case the misery probably evens out.

You might be surprised at how many people enjoy the feeling of grinding out improvement in the gym. In my experience it can be a lot more fun than dancing for certain personality types (mine included)

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#157

Post by gradschoolfail »

aebtebeten wrote: post #150
gradschoolfail wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To riff on the risque, I advertise [if forex, SPJ is allowed these days to be remembered for idealizing the shitting of pants..] the idea of experts’ pants as a a commodity to die metaphorically for (With the caveat that some might enjoy seeing instead what the experts are hiding when the tide [of fashion] goes out) (& one can e.g. with this explain, with mauvaise foi, Hipour’s smile)

Shirts are topologically indistinguishable from crotchless pants; do we have a metric here? https://www.thepsmiths.com/p/review-scaling-people-by-claire... goes into the differences between (in 1984 terms) inner- and outer-party expertise (aka foxes and lions? psychopaths and clueless? morlocks and eloi?). Yeah, when you've already known since ever to discount the wandering ones, what're a few more transients* to ign…

Below the waterline? (Waistline if less charitable)

Ah havent read this article yet but anticipating “insider” as a more distinguishing term than “experts” should cover their edge cases

(Which secrets are shameful to share vs merely uh inconvenient, e.g. for waistline, depends on how you draw the party lines, some do it at type ii “zahlungsfaehig” vs “proleten” as nsdap apparently another eg, for waterline)

[do you have a fictional character for each of sigfox & lion?]

So, where is the line for YC?

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#158

Post by mlyle »

scotty79 wrote: post #149
mlyle wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not specific to dance here, but just replying to your general thesis: The "just be yourself" advice is so hard, because it's what actually works, but it's also difficult to do when you care about the outcome. And, of course, it has a prerequisite of a whole lot of work to make "yourself" into something worthwhile and interesting. Of course one would like a shortcut that still works if you've not done the prior course…

> The "just be yourself" advice is so hard, because it's what actually work For attractive people or at least those whose attractiveness is not totally niche

Nah. I'm not conventionally attractive. But still, figuring out how to better myself, and then just -relax- and be myself, was what built meaningful connections.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#159

Post by gregors »

changing1999 wrote: post #73
BaculumMeumEst wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if your exercise involves you regularly getting choked out you probably shouldn’t be expecting neurological benefits

No one is getting regularly choked out in BJJ. You always tap. The goal is not to injure your partner but to learn together. Source: 5 years of BJJ, I have never been choked out, I am not an idiot.

The only reason you'd ever get choked out in BJJ is because you lost the fight with your own ego.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#160

Post by _yb2s »

kukkeliskuu wrote: post #137
_yb2s wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have experience with a few types of dance including salsa and bachata, and also compete as a strength athlete- and find some of the more complex weight lifting moves- such as the push jerk- a lot harder and more technical than anything I’ve learned dancing. If every aspect of your timing and form aren’t perfect, it simply does not work at heavier weights, and can take years of constant practice to perfect. The extr…

I have 20 years experience in dancing couples dances, with lots of private classes on technique in some styles, as well three years in weight training with several times per week with a PT who specialized in and taught me weight training technique. (I am not very muscular, though, so I am not saying this to brag, just to give you some idea of my background). I have had a really bad body coordination, so I have had to…

I don’t use 100 percent effort when actually training- only during competition. Mostly because the risk of injury, equipment required, and safety preparations for 100 percent effort are substantial- and the recovery time afterwards takes a week or more.

That said, when I was a beginner I used ”100 percent effort” a lot- because as a beginner my 100 percent effort was probably only really about 70 percent, I lacked the mental ability and pain tolerance for true 100 percent effort.

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