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Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

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Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#121

Post by sitkack »

macintux wrote: post #38
ericmcer wrote: post #37

I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that training more complex motions would trigger greater brain improvements. Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise bike.

Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an adult, only to discover it was for people who were already experienced dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more complex than exercise. Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run through a complex step two or three times, and we were expected to be able to practice at home. I didn't understand what we were doing while we were doing it, there was no…

Try taking modern dance. They have the huge choreography that you need to memorize, with like 19 degrees of freedom and then 40 minutes through the class the instructor says, "flip it over" and you need to perform the mirror image of all those movements. You can't handle the chirality!

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#122

Post by yellow_postit »

bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

Replicability was my first thought as well. These papers make great headlines but how much shaky pyramids of conclusions are built on non-reproducible conclusions?

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#123

Post by LeonB »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #99
alaithea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've danced extensively, and tap can be brutal for the sheer number of steps you need to remember. Other dance disciplines, like ballet, tend to chunk sets of smaller movements into a larger, named one, so once you learn those sequences, it's easy to learn and recall longer routines. The way ballet is put together aligns with advice from brain science about chunking objects in memory for better recall. But tap has fe…

>chunking objects in memory for better recall // Can you share your source on this? Tangentially related wittering (I have flu, I'm a bit illucid rn): I do karate, I find sequenced moves to be a real mental struggle. But then I couldn't skip until I was a teenager. I blame/describe that as arrhythmia. I can't clap in time either.

The book “Peak” - and other works by that author detail studies related to this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak:_Secrets_from_the_New_S...

> The book was written partly as a response to the misrepresented but increasingly commonplace idea of the "10,000-hour rule," popularized by Malcolm Gladwell in his 2008 book Outliers and which Gladwell had based on Ericsson's own research.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#124

Post by WalterBright »

kelnos wrote: post #117
WalterBright wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anticipating and adapting is how lead-follow dances work, especially when your partner is not your usual partner. The follower anticipates and adapts to the leader, the leader anticipates and adapts to the follower's skill and knowledge level. A good lead will make the follower look good and feel good. A leader is also responsible for collision avoidance with other couples, and enables the follower to have confidence…

I generally agree with you, but GP and above were talking about martial arts, not jogging. I expect there's likely not much conversation going on between sparring partners, either.

The post I responded to did not mention martial arts.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#125

Post by WalterBright »

gosub100 wrote: post #110
WalterBright wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With dance you are constantly learning new material. Much less so with an exercise routine, even if you "mix it up".

So those square dancers are constantly coming up with new material? Ballroom innovators are patenting never before seen ways to articulate the human body? Sure.

There are many, many styles of ballroom dancing. You're never going to run out of things to learn.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#126

Post by alaithea »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #99
alaithea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've danced extensively, and tap can be brutal for the sheer number of steps you need to remember. Other dance disciplines, like ballet, tend to chunk sets of smaller movements into a larger, named one, so once you learn those sequences, it's easy to learn and recall longer routines. The way ballet is put together aligns with advice from brain science about chunking objects in memory for better recall. But tap has fe…

>chunking objects in memory for better recall // Can you share your source on this? Tangentially related wittering (I have flu, I'm a bit illucid rn): I do karate, I find sequenced moves to be a real mental struggle. But then I couldn't skip until I was a teenager. I blame/describe that as arrhythmia. I can't clap in time either.

Sure. There’s a Wikipedia page on Chunking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunking_(psychology)

Arrhythmia and trouble doing sequenced moves… that’s interesting. I can’t quite make the connection but wouldn’t be surprised if there is one. On the flip side, I’ve actually used rhythm to help me memorize things at times, e.g. saying multiplication tables like they’re a poem or a chant. My kid just picked this up from me and started doing it on her own and it seemed to accelerate her learning.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#127

Post by tomjakubowski »

WalterBright wrote: post #124
kelnos wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you, but GP and above were talking about martial arts, not jogging. I expect there's likely not much conversation going on between sparring partners, either.

The post I responded to did not mention martial arts.

I'm confused. All of the posts you replied to in this chain mentioned martial arts -- maybe you didn't understand that sparring is part of the practice of martial arts?

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#128

Post by alaithea »

sitkack wrote: post #121
macintux wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an adult, only to discover it was for people who were already experienced dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more complex than exercise. Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run through a complex step two or three times, and we were expected to be able to practice at home. I didn't understand what we were doing while we were doing it, there was no…

Try taking modern dance. They have the huge choreography that you need to memorize, with like 19 degrees of freedom and then 40 minutes through the class the instructor says, "flip it over" and you need to perform the mirror image of all those movements. You can't handle the chirality!

Truth. Sometimes the modern dance movements don’t even have names; it’s a wiggle in this direction or that, so you’re using either photo- or kinesthetic memory to mimic and remember if you’re able.

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#129

Post by djtango »

_yb2s wrote: post #90
justsee wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond fundamental moves in any partner dance style, the complexity increases significantly. It's not just your coordination and flexibility in placing legs, feet, arms, hands, torso in various positions at the right time, it's also leading your follower, adapting to their own abilities, tension, movement, mobility, and mood, connecting with them energetically, with the music, with the floor, and practicing dance flo…

I imagine, being an art form, there is almost limitless possibility for complexity and difficulty in dance. However, I would argue the same is also true for strength sports, which ultimately are a type of martial art. I don’t think one is categorically simpler than the other- they both offer people of any skill and ability level lifelong challenges. My point was not to claim dance was easy but that “exercise” is not…

I'd argue dance has a higher skill floor but both have a high skill ceiling.

With dance you need minimum 4 limb coordination (its more than this) to get started. You need rhythm and you need to memorize choreo.

At low weights lifting is pretty straightforward even for Olympic lifts. But your form only gets found out as you increase load and there's high risk of injury, and as you say you need a high focus.

As someone said - you chose the exception to the rule and the average person needs to use exercise machines because they lack the body awareness to even attempt strength sports.

That said the technical timing to strength sports is different to rhythm in dance/music. They both take focus but I think the brain is engaged differently. Especially as lifting is usually one movement and the movement is performed in a short burst. Whereas dance is a long sequence and usually a very different energy profile which is important. I do a lot of stuff but I recommend dance to people (as someone who doesn't really dance myself) because it forces you to relax in a way a lot of other exercise forms don't

Re: Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

#130

Post by hunter-gatherer »

jon_richards wrote: post #119
bogtog wrote: post #19

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. Thi…

See also the dead salmon study https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/scicurious-brain/ign...

> "The original poster almost didn't make it to a conference, but when it did, it made a major splash"

Best pun ever.

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