Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan • Hacker News Board

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#71

Post by rad_gruchalski » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

fhdsgbbcaA wrote: post #53

Spooky23 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a ton of fraud in this space. You need at least hybrid to keep that at bay. At a previous place, we chose hybrid RTO over intrusive surveillance. My opinion shifted from being a full remote advocate after I caught a half dozen folks with various schemes and scams. The straw that broke the camels back was a guy who lied about where he was living. He was going through a divorce and the ex-wife ratted him out to…

Define “fraud”? If you get your work done in two hours and can’t progress until a teammate does their end, is it better or worse if you are scrolling HN in an office or at home? I run my own company, I do not give a single fuck how, where, or when people get their job done. I only care they deliver. Likewise, people who need to be watched over are not the employees I want in the first place. I’m not running a daycare…

> Define “fraud”?

He lived in another state but paid taxes where he supposed to be living. The company was held liable.

> I run my own company

Then you should understand what for you can be held liable and what your responsibilities are. It may be very expensive not to know. In extreme cases you may be held criminally liable.

> I do not give a single fuck

It’s just a recommendation: I’d suggest you do because your tax authorities certainly do.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#72

Post by scarface_74 » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #40

scarface_74 wrote: post #2

Hybrid is RTO. If I can’t live where I want to live and work from anywhere, it’s a non starter for me. In my little neck of the woods - cloud consulting/professional services - Google is worse than Amazon where I just left last year. AWS ProServe never had a RTO mandate and from former coworkers I’ve talked to, still doesn’t. Google’s Cloud Consulting division does force a hybrid office schedule which is really dumb…

Well. Being tied to any one cloud is not a great position to be in. Not patronizing.

You’re always locked in to your infrastructure. The entire idea of “cloud agnosticism” is BS.

I’ve seen companies take over a year and thousands of man hours to move from VMs on premise to a cloud platform.

Cloud agnosticism is hardly ever a business differentiator

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#73

Post by honkycat » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

RTO is going to be brutal for us in 3rd tier cities like PDX

The tech scene here SUCKS, but I much prefer the lifestyle to a large city ( plus, I can buy a house here. )

Not sure what will happen if the days of remote work ends. How will I get a gig?

There was a time in the mid 2010s were they were obsessed with "servant leaders" and "leading from the front"... those days are long-fucking-gone. Guarantee the executive class will not be forced into office.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#74

Post by abadpoli » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:19 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #2

Hybrid is RTO. If I can’t live where I want to live and work from anywhere, it’s a non starter for me. In my little neck of the woods - cloud consulting/professional services - Google is worse than Amazon where I just left last year. AWS ProServe never had a RTO mandate and from former coworkers I’ve talked to, still doesn’t. Google’s Cloud Consulting division does force a hybrid office schedule which is really dumb…

> AWS ProServe never had a RTO mandate

Before Covid, no team had an RTO mandate, so ProServe wasn’t really special here. In ProServe you were still expected to be in an office regularly, but it was just understood that you wouldn’t be in an Amazon office all the time because you’re likely at a client’s office instead.

Post-covid, it’s mostly the same, although now even many clients aren’t requiring consultants to come in. But when they do, you’re expected to be there.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#75

Post by bityard » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:20 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #44

xyst wrote: post #12

They say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing wit…

There’s a ton of fraud in this space. You need at least hybrid to keep that at bay. At a previous place, we chose hybrid RTO over intrusive surveillance. My opinion shifted from being a full remote advocate after I caught a half dozen folks with various schemes and scams. The straw that broke the camels back was a guy who lied about where he was living. He was going through a divorce and the ex-wife ratted him out to…

"Work in the office" or "remote surveillance" are not the only two possible options here.

I work (remotely) for a company that treats their employees like adults. I have a work-provided laptop, but it doesn't contain any surveillance-ware and my boss doesn't care where I am or what I'm doing as long as I'm getting my stuff done and showing up for zoom meetings. When they hired me, they ran a background check to ensure that I was who I said I was, among other due diligence.

There are more companies like this. They may not be in the majority, but they exist.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#76

Post by layer8 » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:22 PM UTC

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #5

I applaud Microsoft and Google for not going with a full RTO. But hybrid work still requires you to live near an office. True remote work enables an economy that is spread out, resilient, and lets people live the way they want. We have this capability so why not do it?

I would hate to live in a world where I don’t regularly meet with coworkers face-to-face. Remote communication just isn’t the same, you lose a lot of signal and are more compartmentalized from each other. I’m saying that as an introvert.

But I also have a short commute and a nice office.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#77

Post by glzone1 » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:22 PM UTC

fhdsgbbcaA wrote: post #53

Spooky23 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a ton of fraud in this space. You need at least hybrid to keep that at bay. At a previous place, we chose hybrid RTO over intrusive surveillance. My opinion shifted from being a full remote advocate after I caught a half dozen folks with various schemes and scams. The straw that broke the camels back was a guy who lied about where he was living. He was going through a divorce and the ex-wife ratted him out to…

Define “fraud”? If you get your work done in two hours and can’t progress until a teammate does their end, is it better or worse if you are scrolling HN in an office or at home? I run my own company, I do not give a single fuck how, where, or when people get their job done. I only care they deliver. Likewise, people who need to be watched over are not the employees I want in the first place. I’m not running a daycare…

A lot of business don't want to bother performance managing that closely. Plenty just worked off of trust.

* You hire someone, and then figure out someone else is doing the work (usually because they are making stupid mistakes, and the person you hired can't be that dumb)

* Your staff work odd hours that make coordinating hard (side gigs / hussle's etc).

* I think the rumored record of multiple full time jobs someone was working was 5+.

* We interviewed someone who was upfront they would be working for us while working for her full time day job remotely.

We deal with sensitive information. Having data go overseas etc is a no go for our business at least.

Note: If you have to deal with government agencies that have gone remote you KNOW that the throughput is sometimes < 50% what it was before. You can almost immediately tell as someone dealing with them. No one answers their phones, all voicemail, all super long delays (week+).

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#78

Post by grayfaced » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:25 PM UTC

yieldcrv wrote: post #65

grayfaced wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you find out that your developers were actually in North Korea and you've violated sanctions, would you care then? https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-disrupts-n...

They’re literally doing the work. They’re not accused of placing backdoors, they’re not accused of anything aside from the US government running an antiquated sanctions regime, and just doing the work. The US government isnt charging companies with OFAC violations, so there is no reason to care. North Koreans learned how to be a fake Staff Software Engineer and do non-fake things for real RSUs. Companies shouldnt bur…

That sounds akin to saying a security breach doesn't matter until there are consequences. Not many companies would be comfortable being in the position that they have not verified the identities of employees who have access to payment processing data.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#79

Post by qqtt » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:26 PM UTC

cush wrote: post #51

I know multiple people who worked at Amazon (I say worked because they've recently quit) who would log two of their three weekly badges by going in the office at 11:59pm, and again at 12:01 am. Their team, managers, and collaborators never actually expected them at their desks. It was all to appease this mandate. It's not surprising that Amazon has moved to 5 days a week despite so many people gaming the system and n…

I honestly don't think there is any algorithm. For all the bluster and commitment to being "data driven", none of the companies I've seen mandate RTO have provided any sort of data-driven reason why it needs to happen. Amazon's policy might as well be "Jassy feels it in his gut that RTO is better for the company so we are doing it".

All the communication of RTO invokes the most fanciful and vague references to "magical hallway conversations" and "increased collaboration" without a single data point to back up any of the claims.

It has been almost humorous to watch such stalwarts of "data driven decision making" turn up a giant goose egg with respect to actual evidence on such a huge, impactful, and far reaching decision.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#80

Post by ultimafan » Thu, Oct 03, 2024, 9:27 PM UTC

time0ut wrote: post #59

ENGNR wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same! Tech job, my co-founder and I are only a 5 minute drive or bike ride from the office. It’s nice to get dressed and have that separation from home. I feel like the commute is what people are actually feeling the worst, because it’s unpaid time that they just straight up lose. Being close to the office resolves it for us.

I don't have the discipline to stop working when I work from home. Being able to go into the office every day is a nice perk for me to help structure my day. If it was a longer drive, I'd probably feel differently.

I feel the exact opposite- I didn't have the discipline to keep working when I work from home- my productivity plummeted during COVID and skyrocketed when RTO was mandated again. At home I'm too easily distracted by errands, hobby projects in the garage, picking up a book to read "just a chapter" on a coffee break and realizing 2-3 hours have passed, and the like. In office I feel obligated to actually be productive from the combined shame of being seen as a slacker and less physical opportunities to goof off.