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Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

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Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#41

Post by mushufasa »

mushufasa wrote: post #33
sethhochberg wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see this all the time working at the intersection of the insurance / fintech space. I've had several big, legacy vendors make requests for multiple physical signatures on a piece of paper (printed and mailed or faxed, can't just annotate a PDF) from people who haven't even met eachother in person let alone ever worked at the same address. The kicker? These papers are access authorization forms to APIs. Your averag…

is this your startup? I'd love to chat about what you've found work. we're in the intersection of fintech / wealth (which overlaps with insurance). I've gotten by just fine for the past few years but we are starting to see more questions about this that require us to change our legal address away from a residence. I think we got away without much trouble solely because of the pandemic, and now it's over we're going t…

Basically, for those who aren't living this, the physical address is mostly a liability thing. Insurance expect to be able to (imagine worst case scenario) walk into an office and blame / seize assets / arrest people if things go south. Sometimes you can just provide a residential address of a founder / board member, but all the diligence forms etc expect a physical office building where you can find all the employees 5 days a week if you just walk in.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#42

Post by ygjb »

mushufasa wrote: post #13
blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #5

I applaud Microsoft and Google for not going with a full RTO. But hybrid work still requires you to live near an office. True remote work enables an economy that is spread out, resilient, and lets people live the way they want. We have this capability so why not do it?

> We have this capability so why not do it? sortof yes, sortof no. Aside from all the conversation about work culture, state taxes are a big barrier to fully remote work. States hate losing tax revenue. Notoriously, it is easier to register to do business in a state than to unregister. This is even harder internationally. For large organizations, remote can be the difference between one state's paperwork + regs + tax…

> For large organizations, remote can be the difference between one state's paperwork + regs + taxation, and every state and country under the sun's paperwork + regs + taxation. That is a real burden. Not just the paperwork + administrative overhead, but being subject to differing employment + everything else laws from everywhere will really muck up ability to run a consistent business.

This is a real burden for small businesses. The nature of Amazon's business as an online retailer with a massive distribution network means that for any significant market they do business in, they will have employees. Practically speaking, this is a solved problem for any state in which Amazon has a warehouse (which I think is probably all of them for the US?).

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#43

Post by KittenInABox »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #17
makestuff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the downside of being that spread out is the infrastructure. Cities subsidize the suburban infrastructure because of the population density benefits. If everyone spreads out then infrastructure will suffer.

Do cities actually subsidize suburban infrastructure? I am skeptical but I don’t know all of the details on how people come to that conclusion. What happens if the economy is more spread out? Also a lot of the people that own and run companies that give a city its tax base live in the suburban areas. It might even be reasonable to say that they are the ones subsidizing the city and not the other way. How do you think…

It's not like cities give their money to every suburban mom. It's like this:

Suburbs cannot function without freeways, but the presence of freeways harm the property values of city neighborhoods not suburban ones.

SFH simply produces less tax revenue than an entire apartment building by land, so any statewide social services (education, freeway maintenance...) is paid proportionately more by cities than by SFH.

There are reports[0] of cities reporting that their SFH actually loses them money due to the fact they simply don't pay their fair share of taxes vs all the infrastructure they use.

It's not like the government is going "oh boy, SFH mom, here's 500$ plucked straight from some inner city mom's payroll taxes". But in the broader system of supporting many people's living styles through greater societal infrastructure, less-dense housing like suburbs do not put out as much as they take.

[0]https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53dd6676e4b0fedfbc26e... [Town of Nolensville, TN]

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#44

Post by Spooky23 »

xyst wrote: post #12

They say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing wit…

There’s a ton of fraud in this space. You need at least hybrid to keep that at bay.

At a previous place, we chose hybrid RTO over intrusive surveillance. My opinion shifted from being a full remote advocate after I caught a half dozen folks with various schemes and scams.

The straw that broke the camels back was a guy who lied about where he was living. He was going through a divorce and the ex-wife ratted him out to the state tax authority to get the reward. The company was fined by both states. The ex made like $50k.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#45

Post by ryandrake »

worstspotgain wrote: post #39
xyst wrote: post #12

They say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing wit…

In the Bay Area, 1-hour commutes are generally for older and apartment people. Younger family people are in the 2+ range.

When I lived in the Bay Area, my commute was ~2.5 hours each way. I would have killed for a 1 hour commute.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#46

Post by janalsncm »

RTO is effectively a cut to your hourly wage since you need to commute. I think people would be less sore about it if Amazon and others extended an olive branch of “commute time pay” or something.

(And no, free food and snacks don’t count. Amazon doesn’t have that anyways.)

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#47

Post by stego-tech »

xyst wrote: post #12

They say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing wit…

I mean, my experience says you’re right, but the red hot labor summer combined with Dell and Amazon _and_ Apple workers vocally opposing such mandates and leaving outright give me hope that maybe, _maybe_ leadership will accept this is a losing battle and embrace the new norms.

Barring that, the younger working demographics have made it abundantly clear there’s a zero tolerance for the traditional corporate bullshit. When mandates first came down, they responded with “coffee badging” and the like; I don’t doubt there will be another adaptation, like arriving late and leaving early, baking the commute time silently into the work day.

The writing is on the wall, and the modern worker knows how badly they’re being screwed over. I’d argue it’s a wiser decision to let the workers do their jobs from wherever, consolidate offices into continental HQs, and decentralize the workforce to disincentivize collective action. Workers get the flexibility they need to survive in the current cost of living/housing crisis, and companies don’t risk bleeding talent or earning the wrath of a Union election.

Everybody wins except commercial landlords, but they’re not exactly the good guys here anyway.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#48

Post by whstl »

xyst wrote: post #12

They say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing wit…

> There are _some_ roles which may require in-person

IME when working in a Product role, it worked better from the office. Doesn't have to be every day, but being able to talk directly to people is much better than having to schedule meetings.

Tech positions don't even need daily video calls IMO. My team experimented with a few days of written status updates and it was fine. But they chose to have a 10-mins stand-up mainly for socialization.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#49

Post by ryandrake »

ygjb wrote: post #42
mushufasa wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have this capability so why not do it? sortof yes, sortof no. Aside from all the conversation about work culture, state taxes are a big barrier to fully remote work. States hate losing tax revenue. Notoriously, it is easier to register to do business in a state than to unregister. This is even harder internationally. For large organizations, remote can be the difference between one state's paperwork + regs + tax…

> For large organizations, remote can be the difference between one state's paperwork + regs + taxation, and every state and country under the sun's paperwork + regs + taxation. That is a real burden. Not just the paperwork + administrative overhead, but being subject to differing employment + everything else laws from everywhere will really muck up ability to run a consistent business. This is a real burden for smal…

All major payroll companies and employment law firms have long since figured out paperwork, taxes, and labor regulations in all 50 states. Unless you're so small that you don't even have an external payroll provider or legal counsel, "differences between States" shouldn't be a valid excuse.

Re: Google won't be mandating a strict return-to-office plan

#50

Post by Spooky23 »

stego-tech wrote: post #47
xyst wrote: post #12

They say this now. But in 12 months (or the next layoff period), they will move from hybrid to full RTO. Still a shitty move to mandate RTO. Most people (IT folks) have spoke with do this routine: 0) daily routine to prepare for day 1) 1 hr commute to shitty office 2) login to computer, do calls with cross regional (and international) teams over Zoom/Teams/Webex or whatever conferencing system 3) teleconferencing wit…

I mean, my experience says you’re right, but the red hot labor summer combined with Dell and Amazon _and_ Apple workers vocally opposing such mandates and leaving outright give me hope that maybe, _maybe_ leadership will accept this is a losing battle and embrace the new norms. Barring that, the younger working demographics have made it abundantly clear there’s a zero tolerance for the traditional corporate bullshit.…

Tech organizations are all overstaffed from the pandemic. Engineering is usually boom/bust. Likely outcome is recession and purge. The plucky gen alphas will be in the cube farm to pay they rent.
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