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Do AI companies work?

benn.substack.com

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Re: Do AI companies work?

#301
post #239
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* We're seeing much less of "it's making mistakes" these days.* Perhaps less than before, but still making very fundamental errors. Anything involving number I'm automatically suspicious. Pretty frequently I'd get different answers for the same question (to a human). e.g. ChatGPT will give an effective tax rate of n for some income amount. Then when asked to break down the calculation will come up with an effective t…

Yes. Numbers / math is pretty much instant hallucination. But. Try this approach instead: have it generate python code, with print statements before every bit of math it performs. It will write pretty good code, which you then execute to generate the actual answer. Simpler example: paste in a paragraph of text, ask it to count the number of words. The answer will be incorrect most of the time. Instead, ask it to out…

> Yes. Numbers / math is pretty much instant hallucination.

Programming is codified applied mathematics and involves numbers in all but the most trivial programs.

> LLMs are pretty human-like in their mental abilities.

LLM's are algorithms. Algorithms do not have "mental abilities", people do. Anthropomorphizing algorithms only serves to impair objective analysis of when they are, or are not, applicable.

> In the products we've built, there is an AI feature that generates aggregations of spreadsheet data. We have a dual unittest & aggregator loop to generate correct values.

> The first step is to generate some unittests. And in order to generate correct numerical data for unittests, we ask it to write some code with math expressions first. We interpret the expressions, and paste it back into the unittest generator - which then writes the unittests with the correct inputs / outputs.

> Then the aggregation generator then generates code until the generated unittests pass completely. Then we have the code for the aggregator function that we can run against the spreadsheet.

How is this not a classic definition of overfitting[0]?

Or is the generated code intentionally specific to, and only applicable for, a single spreadsheet?

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overfitting

Re: Do AI companies work?

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything you said in your previous post. The LLM as a search engine might basically eat Google's lunch in the same way the internet ate cable tv's lunch. Cable tv was a terrible product due to the advertising, and you could escape the BS by watching stuff online. Now look where we are.

Fun fact: Cable itself was originally the ad-free "premium" version of over-the-air television! And it eventually added some ads and then more ads and now we're at present day, where you get roughly 8 minutes of ads per 22 minutes of content. I noticed visiting a hotel recently (like fuck I pay for cable!) that their cable service had sped up the intro of Law and Order SVU , presumably to make room for more advertise…

> Cable itself was originally the ad-free "premium" version of over-the-air television

Often repeated but not true. Cable was originally just all the ad-supported OTA stations delivered over a wire. It had ads on day 1. It would be over a decade before the first premium cable channels would launch, and even then most of the first channels also had ads.

Re: Do AI companies work?

#303
The title should be “Do LLM building companies work?”. The article fails to address companies that will be using LLMs or companies innovating on other models/architectures.

I don’t think most people looking to build an AI company want to build an LLM and call it a company.

Re: Do AI companies work?

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smartphones let us do some tasks we couldn't do at all in 1995, such as GPS turn-by-turn navigation. Sure, they also do other tasks we were already doing in 1995: mobile telephony, mobile TV watching (we had portable handheld TVs back then--they were awful but they worked), mobile music listening (Sony Walkman), easy-to-use photography, but there's some things that we couldn't do at all before this technology became…

GPS turn-by-turn wasn't commonly available in the consumer space in 1995, but the first successful consumer turn-by-turn GPS came out 1998 with the Garmin StreetPilot. So close to 1995 but not quite there. Still though, GPS navigation was definitely a common thing pre-iPhone. I remember being gifted a cheap one a few years before the iPhone came out. We didn't need smartphones to do GPS navigation. TomTom came out in…

You need smartphones to do GPS navigation in the modern sense, which is: 1) look for e.g. "Italian restaurant" in your area 2) look at choices nearby, screen out ones currently closed, too expensive, bad reviews, etc., and pick one 3) navigate there

In the early days of GPS, you needed an actual address to navigate to. That's not very useful if you don't know where you want to go in the first place. Smartphones changed all that: now you don't need to know a specific place you want to go, you just need to know what you want to do generally, and the nav app will help you find where exactly you want to go and take you there. That's impossible without either an internet connection or a very large local database (that's out of date).

Re: Do AI companies work?

#305
The question is too broad. What's an AI company? It could be anything. The particular sub class here that is implied is companies that are spending many billions to develop LLMs.

The business model for those is to produce amazing LLM models that are hard to re-create unless you have similar resources and then make money providing access, licensing, etc.

What are those resources? Compute, data, and time. And money. You can compensate for lack of time by throwing compute at the problem or less/more data. Which is a different way of saying: spend more money. So, it's no surprise that this space is dominated by trillion dollar companies with near infinite budgets and a small set of silicon valley VC backed companies that are getting multi billion dollar investments.

So the real question is whether these companies have enough of a moat to defend their multi billion dollar investments. The answer seems to be no. For three reasons: hardware keeps getting cheaper, software keeps getting better, and using the models is a lot cheaper than creating them.

Creating GPT-3 was astronomically expensive a few years ago and now it is a lot cheaper by a few orders of magnitude. GPT-3 is of course obsolete now. But I'm running Llama 3.2 on my laptop and it's not that bad in comparison. That only took 2 years.

Large scale language model creation is becoming a race to the bottom. The software is mostly open source and shared by the community. There is a lot of experimentation happening but mostly the successful algorithms, strategies, and designs are quickly copied by others. To the point where most of these companies don't even try to keep this a secret anymore.

So that means new, really expensive LLMs have a short shelf life where competitors struggle to replicate the success and then the hardware gets cheaper and others run better algorithms against whatever data they have. Combine that with freely distributed models and the ability to run them on cheap infrastructure and you end up with a moat that isn't that hard to cross.

IMHO all of the value is in what people do with these models. Not necessarily in the models. They are enablers. Very expensive ones. Perhaps a good analogy is the value of Intel vs. that of Microsoft. Microsoft made software that ran on Intel chips. Intel just made the chips. And then other chip manufacturers came along. Chips are a commodity now. Intel is worth a lot less than MS. And MS is but a tiny portion of the software economy. All the value is in software. And a lot of that software is OSS. Even MS uses Linux now.

Re: Do AI companies work?

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS turn-by-turn wasn't commonly available in the consumer space in 1995, but the first successful consumer turn-by-turn GPS came out 1998 with the Garmin StreetPilot. So close to 1995 but not quite there. Still though, GPS navigation was definitely a common thing pre-iPhone. I remember being gifted a cheap one a few years before the iPhone came out. We didn't need smartphones to do GPS navigation. TomTom came out in…

You need smartphones to do GPS navigation in the modern sense, which is: 1) look for e.g. "Italian restaurant" in your area 2) look at choices nearby, screen out ones currently closed, too expensive, bad reviews, etc., and pick one 3) navigate there In the early days of GPS, you needed an actual address to navigate to. That's not very useful if you don't know where you want to go in the first place. Smartphones chang…

The POI database was largely the big selling point of TomTom though.

And the Magellan GPS I had pre-iPhone had quite a POI database as well. I think it had monthly updates available online. I could search "Blockbuster" or "gas station" or "public parking" or "hotel" and it would know locations. Obviously it wasn't making dinner recommendations but it did have a lot of restaurants in it.

Also you specifically called out turn by turn. Knowing the one off holiday hours of a hole in the wall restaurant isn't necessary for turn by turn GPS.

Re: Do AI companies work?

#307
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Numbers / math is pretty much instant hallucination. But. Try this approach instead: have it generate python code, with print statements before every bit of math it performs. It will write pretty good code, which you then execute to generate the actual answer. Simpler example: paste in a paragraph of text, ask it to count the number of words. The answer will be incorrect most of the time. Instead, ask it to out…

> Yes. Numbers / math is pretty much instant hallucination. Programming is codified applied mathematics and involves numbers in all but the most trivial programs. > LLMs are pretty human-like in their mental abilities. LLM's are algorithms. Algorithms do not have "mental abilities", people do. Anthropomorphizing algorithms only serves to impair objective analysis of when they are, or are not, applicable. > In the pro…

> Anthropomorphizing algorithms only serves to impair objective analysis of when they are, or are not, applicable.

Actually, in this case, comparing how we as humans think to how LLM's work is in fact useful. It's hard for us to eyeball a word and say how many consonants are in it, we need to count. I wouldn't ask a human to eyeball a tax return and tell me what the totals are reliably without giving them the tools to add things up. LLM's are the same way.

It's true that anthropomorphizing in general can be a trap, but when working with LLM's it can be a useful guide in pointing the way towards workable solutions.

Re: Do AI companies work?

#308
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that not the human experience? I have no “agency” over the next thought to pop into my head. I “feel” like I can choose where to focus attention, but that too is a predictable outcome arising from the integration of my embryology, memories, and recently reinforced behaviors. “I” am merely an observer of my own mental state. But that is an uncomfortable idea for most people.

While technically true, the difference is that we don't know in details how that process works and we can't predict it. There is not much of a difference in considering it deterministic or not, because we can't determine it.

> and we can't predict it

Has there been a serious effort to, using something that might be capable of doing so, like neural nets?

Re: Do AI companies work?

#309
I don't get the point of the author. At one point he's saying because the race to get bigger and better will never end, we'll need ever larger compute and more and more and more, so in the end, the companies will fail.

I don't see it this way. In plumbing I could have chosen to use 4" pipe throughout my house. I chose 3". Heck, I could have purchased commercial pipe that's 12", or even 36". It would have changed a lot of the design of my foundation.

Just because there is something much bigger and can handle a lot more poop, doesn't mean it's going to be useful for everyone.

Re: Do AI companies work?

#310
> it’s burning through $7 billion a year to fund research and new A.I. services and hire more employees

And at some point one of these companies will reach the point it does not need as many employees. And has a model capable of efficiently incorporating new learning without having to reset and relearn from scratch.

That is what AGI is.

Computing resources for inference and incremental learning will still be needed, but when the AGI itself is managing all/much of that, including continuing to find efficiencies, ... profitably might be unprecedented.

The speed of advance over the last two decades has been steady and exponential. There are not many (or any) credible signals that a technical wall is about to be encountered.

Which is why I believe that I, I by myself, might get there. Sort of, kind of, probably not, probably just kidding. Myself.

--

Another reason companies are spending billions is to defend their existing valuations. Google's value could go to zero if they don't keep up. Other companies likewise.

It is the new high stakes ante for large informational/social service relevance.

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