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New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

spectrum.ieee.org

11–20 of 103 posts

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#11
We’ve had other discussions of these sort of quantum compass ideas, see

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40692333

for example.

I can never quite wrap my head around it or figure out if they are all the same idea, or what, and what exactly the idea is.

In particular, the article soften describe something that “could replace GPS.” But then they start taking about compasses, and things that sound a lot like IMUs. Integrating accelerations is well known as a bad way of keeping track of position over longer timescales due to catastrophic cancellation. A more accurate IMU might let you do it for a little longer, but eventually you need an absolute reference point to correct your drift.

But then, sometimes there are references to making very careful measurements of the change in the gravitational field. So maybe those could act as landmarks or something?

I wish there was an article for people who, like, had a control theory or signal processing class, but it was too early in the morning and not very interesting.

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#12
post #3

An ultra sensitive motion sensor. Intriguing. Could one derive the Earth's rotation? The motion of the solar system? By watching vibrations could it be a microphone?

> Could one derive the Earth's rotation?

Yes, existing gyroscopes are sensitive enough for that. In 1966, one of the first Soviet attempts to launch the Soyuz failed on the pad because the guidance system remained active after a scrubbed launch attempt. After a couple of hours, the Earth had rotated enough such that the guidance system thought it was off-course, triggering the still-armed launch escape system.

> The motion of the solar system?

This system, probably not. This class of system at lab scale, maybe eventually. It seems that the galaxy's gravitational acceleration on the solar system is on the order of 10^-10 m/s (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201203133906.h...), so about 10 pico-g. The article says that cold atom interferometers have current sensitivities in the nano-g range but could still potentially improve.

> By watching vibrations could it be a microphone?

With that kind of sensitivity, making it not be a microphone is probably the harder task. However, the sensitivity doesn't necessarily make it a good microphone, since detecting a small signal is useless if the signal-to-noise ratio is too low.

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#13

Sadly, the first applications of this will most likely be military.

More specifically, nuclear arms, where the budget is "there is no budget." Just the inertial guidance system of a 90's-era ICBM cost over six figures per missile. The ability to precisely place a missile without any external navigation (except for stars.) Once it gets cheap enough, it'll probably go into cruise missiles; it could eliminate or reduce the need for terrain contour matching, which requires radar transmis…

Nuclear arms doesn't need as much accuracy as other weapons though: when using a cruise missile or a glide bomb with a few hundreds of kilograms of explosives, you need metric precision to get the military effect, when the payload is a 100kt bomb, then 100m is accurate enough.

Unlike other bombs it must absolutely be 100% resilient to any kind of spoofing though, for obvious reasons, hence GNSS is a nonstarter for those when they are the default guidance system for other weapons (with backups, for cruise missile).

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#14
post #4
post #3

An ultra sensitive motion sensor. Intriguing. Could one derive the Earth's rotation? The motion of the solar system? By watching vibrations could it be a microphone?

You don't need anything nearly so fancy for a laser microphone.

Still want one.

And this vector right here.... that's the milky way's orbit about the greater magellanic cloud...

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#16
post #5

Sadly, the first applications of this will most likely be military.

This will absolutely go in missiles to handle GPS jamming and submarines where satellite signals are unavailable, yes. It'll be nice if they can get it small enough for a phone, though.

> This will absolutely go in missiles to handle GPS jamming

Depending on when the tech is available, preventing GPS jamming of drones is probably much more urgent in Ukraine.

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#17
post #3

An ultra sensitive motion sensor. Intriguing. Could one derive the Earth's rotation? The motion of the solar system? By watching vibrations could it be a microphone?

No because velocity only makes sense as relative to something else. There’s no ‘fixed points’ in the universe This device will track acceleration rather than velocity

Points on the Earth's surface are experiencing an acceleration- after all, after 12 hours their velocity has changed direction by ~180 degrees.

You can detect Earth's rotation with a sufficiently large pendulum[0] or a good gyroscope. Something with enough inertia will tend to refuse to rotate with the planet, which lets you compare the two and infer the absolute rotational speed of the planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault_pendulum

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#18

We’ve had other discussions of these sort of quantum compass ideas, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40692333 for example. I can never quite wrap my head around it or figure out if they are all the same idea, or what, and what exactly the idea is. In particular, the article soften describe something that “could replace GPS.” But then they start taking about compasses, and things that sound a lot like IMUs. In…

Gravity map matching is an approach that can provide absolute references, the general problem there is that gravity maps are not good enough.

Re: New laser could cram GPS alternative into a shoebox

#19
post #3

An ultra sensitive motion sensor. Intriguing. Could one derive the Earth's rotation? The motion of the solar system? By watching vibrations could it be a microphone?

> Could one derive the Earth's rotation? The motion of the solar system?

It's not a motion sensor; it's an acceleration sensor. That's an important distinction because the primary problem with IMUs is that they work of changes in velocity, and error in those measurements slowly accumulate - so they almost always need external references to correct for accumulated drift.

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