Live data from Hacker News

Fraud, so much fraud

science.org

361–370 of 868 posts

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#361
I would rather die than deliberately cause a humongous speed bump in the history of human understanding of the universe like this guy did. And the choice is never that stark. It's usually "id rather work in a less highly paid role".

To selfishly discard the collective attention of scientific experts for undue gain is despicable and should disqualify a person from all professional status indefinitely in addition to any legal charges.

I deeply respect anyone whose desires align with winning the collective game of understanding that science should be. I respect even more those folks who speak up when their colleagues or even friends seek to hack academia like this guy did.

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similar - when I was younger, I would never have suspected that a scientist was committing fraud. Unfortunately many less bright people seem to interpret this as "never trust science", when in reality science is still the best way to push humanity forward and alleviate human suffering, _despite_ all the fraud and misaligned incentives that may influence it.

> Unfortunately many less bright people seem to interpret this as "never trust science" Unfortunately many "smart" people insist on telling "dumb" people how to think instead of having the introspection and humility to examine where we've gone wrong and spending a lot of time and effort on fixing it. No, easier to gaslight the idiots

Exactly. “This is bad because dumb people won’t believe us.”

Not “This is bad because it undermines science, is lying, and unethical, regardless of what people think.”

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#363
post #166

I'm not a researcher or academic, but when I think of roughly how long it takes me to do meaningful deep work and produce a project of any significance, I'm struck by the fact that his 800 papers isn't a red flag? Even if you allocate ~3 months per paper, that's over 200 years of work. Is it common for academics to produce research papers in a matter of days? From the article: Masliah appeared an ideal selection. The…

Similar to

> Founder, CEO, and chief engineer of SpaceX. CEO and product architect of Tesla, Inc. Owner, CTO and Executive Chairman of X (formerly Twitter). Founder of The Boring Company, X Corp., and xAI. Co-founder of Neuralink, OpenAI, Zip2, and X.com (part of PayPal)

It can only be a fraud.

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#364
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this work for things like COVID vaccines, where waiting for a reproduction study would leave hundreds of thousands dead? Ultimately there needs to be some level of trust in scientific institutions as well. I do think placing higher value on reproducibility studies might help the issue somewhat, but I think there also needs to be a larger culture shift of accountability and a higher purpose than profit.

I believe if we taught philosophy in school to a non-trivial level we wouldn't have to rely on trust/faith. I wonder if it's possible to get people to wonder why the one discipline that has the tools to deal with all of these epistemic, logical, etc issues isn't taught in school. You'd think it would be something that people would naturally wonder about, but maybe our fundamentalist (and false) focus on science as th…

[dead]

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar - when I was younger, I would never have suspected that a scientist was committing fraud. As I've gotten older, I understand that Charlie Munger's observation "“Show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome.” is applicable everywhere - including science. Academic scientists' careers are driven by publishing, citations and impact. Arguably some have figured how to game the system to advance their caree…

> Academic scientists' careers are driven by publishing, citations and impact. Publishing and citations can and are gamed, but is impact also gamed on a wide scale? That one seems harder to fake. Either a result is true and useful, or it's not.

Actual real world impact? Hard to game. But, nobody measures that. Everything that's tracked is a circularly defined success metric (you're successful if other academics consider you successful).

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, the replication crisis had come and gone, about 5 years now. The fraudsters are running the place and have been for at least the last half decade, full stop.

That is a ridiculous exaggeration. Yes, like in every walk of life, fraud happens. However, the extreme success of academic science shows that most of it is real, honest, work.

It is field dependent but I'm not entirely against what the parent said. I work in ML and I am positive that all this is going on[0]. There's lots of true believers though and that's what makes things extra hard. Sometimes the fraudsters take over by making the system become incompetent and everyone is in good company. In this was fraud isn't committed with intent, weirdly enough.

Just look at all the ML reasoning papers. Wither you believe LLMs reason or not, an important factor you have to disentangle when trying to prove this is what data the models were trained on. To distinguish memorization from reasoning. You won't find this analysis because it's almost impossible given that the data is a trade secret, even by Meta.

This year at ACL a paper (mission impossible language models) won best poste paper despite their results running contrary to their claim, and very obviously so too.

Or there is the HumanEval paper which proposed that they created a data set which was not spoiled because they "hand wrote" over a hundred "Leetcode style problems". 60 authors and they didn't bother to check... But why would you check when the questions are things like "calculate the mean". What fucking programmer thinks there isn't python code on GitHub pre 2021 that: calculates the mean, takes the floor, checks if a string is a palindrome, calculates greatest common devisor, or any similar question. How did this become an influential dataset‽

[0] the big reason I'm upset is because I love the field. I'm not in it for money. I'm in it because I grew up on Asimov books and because I want our community to work towards AGI. But now every person that can do print("hello world") feels that they can lecture me, a published researcher about what these machines do while they talk about the Turing test (lol, what is this, the 60's?) and how they're black boxes (opaque, but certainly not black). I'm fine with armchair experts, but not when they come in swinging with a baseball bat

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#368
post #217
post #62

These sorts of articles raise so many thoughts and emotions in me. I was trained as a computational biologist with a little lab work and ran gels from time to time. Personally, I hated gels- they're finicky, messy, ugly, and don't really tell you very much. But molecular biology as a field runs on gels- it's the priimary source of results for almost everything in molbio. I have seen more talks and papers that rested…

As long as it's all peer reviewed!!

I'm assuming /s above.

Because the amount of pencil-whipped "peer review" feedback I've received could fit in a shoe box, because many "reviewers" are looking for the CV credit for their role and not so much the actual effort of reviewing.

And there's no way to call them out on their laziness except maybe to not submit to their publication again and warn others against it too.

And, to defend their lack of review, all they need to say to the editor anyway is: "I didn't see it that way."

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similar - when I was younger, I would never have suspected that a scientist was committing fraud. Unfortunately many less bright people seem to interpret this as "never trust science", when in reality science is still the best way to push humanity forward and alleviate human suffering, _despite_ all the fraud and misaligned incentives that may influence it.

Agree. The fact that we are seeing this kind of discourse within the scientific community is in my opinion a great argument for the scientific method.

Why? Some guy writing an op-ed saying how frustrating it is that science is full of fraud is a great argument for the scientific method? There have been people writing articles like this for over 20 years if not much longer about all kinds of fields. Nothing ever happens, nothing ever improves, it never goes beyond people saying "tut tut how terrible". This sort of thing is entirely predictable and will keep happening, over and over again. On the current course, there will be articles just like this one being discussed in another twenty years from now.

Re: Fraud, so much fraud

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your points of memory are not counterpoints. Those are the ones that lived - and are not indicative of the general quality of science during those times. Obvious survivor bias. The fact that you can recall those reinforces the point that the value is determined by how long it is useful and remembered, not the fact that it was published.

Indeed, but you are clearly missing the historical context as these were two highly celebrated and referenced texts of the time period by leading scientists. However, it appears that the leading scientific minds (of which Maxwell and Whittaker are) did not include these uses in their texts. I do not dispute that science can be wrong (in fact it is almost always 'wrong' in the end) nor do I dispute that there could ha…

And what's to say that other highly celebrated and highly referenced texts from that time were not based on bad science or were outright frauds? Your memory of them?

Picking the winners as examples is not good sampling.

Post reply on HN