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Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

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Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#191

Post by sph »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #174
sph wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flatpak is not a common userspace library, just a set of sandboxed functions (i.e. portals). What we need is something that groups Qt/GTK, pipewire, part of systemd, part of flatpak, part of Wayland into a single library, a bit like Win32 is. And the guarantee that it remains stable even for closed source projects. For example Linux is free to change its internals and requires everything to be open, so drivers can be…

The free desktop runtimes for Flatpak made by XDG (the group that standizes the desktop protocols) are a common userspace library.

I get what you mean, but pinning commits does not make for a standard, unified ecosystem.

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#192

Post by throwaway9524 »

pjmlp wrote: post #179
throwaway9524 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems this sentiment is coming up in every recent Proton related thread. Despite all the counterarguments offered each time. The simple reality is that there are decades worth of Windows games that will never have a Linux version. Because of the studios being gone. Because of the source code being lost. Because of the licensing issues for dependencies, assets, music. If not for the Valve efforts people would always n…

Apple developed the x86 translation layer for its own OS, not a third party OS.

I get the reasoning from your other replies. If Microsoft extends Win32 with some new API that cannot be reimplemented in Proton then Valve is screwed. So you want them to require a native Linux version from every game published on Steam.

However I really do not think Valve is in a position to dictate such terms. They have multiple competitors both in distribution and console space. Big names are already publishing on their own stores. Small indies can move to itch.io. Everyone else can switch to Epic. Steam Deck is already underpowered compared to recent Windows based handhelds. If it stops supporting Windows games via Proton then it is as good as dead.

I understand your idealism. But a step like this would kill gaming on Linux much quicker than anything Microsoft could do. Because Valve is the only big distributor even remotely interested in it. In contrast Epic is absolutely hostile to Linux. And they're the ones to gain the most users in case Steam fails.

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#193

Post by Cloudef »

snvzz wrote: post #145
Cloudef wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate but win32 has stable ABI. Such thing can't be really said about glibc and dynamic linking. Many old linux game binaries simply don't work or need tinkering to get them work.

Steam Runtime takes care of this, offering a stable platform for games to target.

Even steam runtime is hit and miss, the problems mostly come with GPU drivers / mesa incompatiblity.

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#194

Post by ElFitz »

shmerl wrote: post #154
ElFitz wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deliberately blocking What do you mean by that?

Unlike Linux, Windows and etc. I don't think even GPU makers can provide their own implementation of Vulkan there - only Apple can do that. And they refuse. So it can be considered a deliberate blocking.

I see. It’s possible.

I personally believe, considering their track record, it’s more likely they simply don’t care about it.

More experienced macOS and iOS developers will probably be able to confirm that Apple basically only invests efforts in what Apple wants, whatever that is, and nothing else.

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#195

Post by shmerl »

flohofwoe wrote: post #188
shmerl wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see nothing silly about it. Bringing other bad examples of lock-ins doesn't excuse Apple in the least. Personally I'd stay away from the above too. > There's also only a handful of Vulkan games There are a ton of games that are Vulkan games through vkd3d-proton and dxvk. Which was the above point.

So if Apple would provide a similar D3D shim on macOS, all D3D games would suddenly become "Metal games"? If Apple would implement Vulkan support on macOS it would be a layer on top of Metal (same as their GL implementation or MoltenVk). Running through two translation layers (D3D => Vk => Metal) doesn't make a lot of sense.

So it should be D3D → Vulkan → kernel / hardware. But Apple are too stuck up with their NIH to allow that.

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#196

Post by skeaker »

pjmlp wrote: post #186
skeaker wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but are you saying you believe Valve is responsible for the development of every game on their store? In case you're just genuinely unaware, games are developed by a variety of people and studios completely separately from Valve.

Did I miss something, don't they own the Steam Store, SteamDeck and dictate the rules what gets sold there?

Yes, and they opt to sell video games from most anyone who opts in to their store. Fundamentally, that is their business. What you're asking of them is beyond unreasonable because it fundamentally goes against what they do and it would immediately kill their business in its entirety if they stopped selling 99% of games. Then we wouldn't even get Proton and Linux would be truly dead for gaming.

What you're asking of them is akin to complaining that Apple sells tech instead of dishwashers when fundamentally that's so far from what they do that it's absurd, not to mention that if they suddenly stopped selling all tech their business would obviously die. I feel a bit foolish for even entertaining this because what you propose is so obviously outlandish to me that I'm about 85% sure you're just messing around to get a rise out of people.

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#197

Post by [deleted] »

pjmlp wrote: post #176
Scramblejams wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve got a scare with Windows 8 that they could be pushed off the platform.[0] It became clear to them that they were just guests in a house owned by Microsoft. That was in 2012, the first Steam Machine (running Linux) came out 3 years later and they've been working at it ever since. It's not about saving the cost of a license, it's about guaranteeing their own survival. As for "supporting native games," I take that…

Currently their survival depends mostly on Windows games, developed for Windows. It would work by placing carrots and whips in place for anyone that wants to target their shop, just like console vendors do.

[deleted]

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#198

Post by flohofwoe »

shmerl wrote: post #195
flohofwoe wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Apple would provide a similar D3D shim on macOS, all D3D games would suddenly become "Metal games"? If Apple would implement Vulkan support on macOS it would be a layer on top of Metal (same as their GL implementation or MoltenVk). Running through two translation layers (D3D => Vk => Metal) doesn't make a lot of sense.

So it should be D3D → Vulkan → kernel / hardware. But Apple are too stuck up with their NIH to allow that.

That would either mean that Apple needs to maintain two separate types of display drivers or create a new abstract driver interface which sits between Metal+Vulkan and the underlying hardware. That's just adding busywork with only downsides, both technical and organisational. Vulkan just isn't that important outside of Linux and Android, especially when most games are built on top of a crossplatform engine anyway.

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#199

Post by zamadatix »

chithanh wrote: post #175
zamadatix wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merging the 2 comment threads for simplicity: Taking all of your assumptions together as givens: - Intel's unacted claims around patents 7 years ago were valid in the first place. - No major government acts against the action because of simultaneous individual tentative politics in each and every single one. Including the EU, which has indeed blocked deals between 2 US companies even after the FTC has approved the me…

In the scenario that I describe, Qualcomm is disinterested in x86, it just wants maximum profit off the purchase. Very much like Oracle basically shitcanned all of Sun Microsystems' products and squeezed Sun customers hard. Keep in mind that the outlook for Intel products is not that rosy both short- and mid-term. They will certainly not go back to commanding historic margins in the datacenter. Also they lost trust f…

Since you repeated the same thing you said the previous time and immediately followed with points that still ignored how Qualcomm itself also wouldn't be able to emulate or sell x86 without the cross-licensing agreement (Intel needs AMD's patents to utilize much of modern x86 as much as AMD needs Intel's) I have to ask as a sanity check - am I talking to a human or a bot?

Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games

#200

Post by zamadatix »

chithanh wrote: post #162
mmcnl wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you're talking volume: what about MacBooks?

MacBooks certainly have volume, but Wine/Proton on macOS is facing serious technical challenges which they only started to address (Wine 9.0 with WoW64 was only released in January). Chromebooks are much lower hanging fruit.

Valve contracts ~a dozen developers from Codeweavers (same folks that develop Codeweavers and the downstream open source project WINE) for Proton and they've had 32 bit Windows executables working on macOS (despite the native limitations) for years.
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