Earlier quoted context omitted.
ARM64EC doesn't really make your code JITable. It is ARM64 code with thunks to enable transitions to x64 code. That's why it runs at near native speeds; not because of the JIT. The x64 portions of the binary do get JITed though, but the ARM64EC portions are usually much faster. All x64 code gets JITed but that's regardless of whether ARM64EC is used or not; ARM64EC allows ARM64 applications to interface with x64 bina…
Okay, I had assumed JIT for x64 wasn't possible (yet) and ARM64EC enabled that partially. So, ARM64EC images are actually native ARM code that can interact with emulated (+JITted) components. For some reason, I thought native ARM64 binaries already had this capability, but they don't. Thanks, that's actually a better state of affairs in Windows on ARM land.
Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
171–180 of 202 posts
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think this is about the hardware necessarily. They probably make more money from the Steam store and there are some notable ARM based platforms where you currently can't use Steam and where they are not able to sell games. Macs would be a big juicy target, for example. If they can get emulation working well enough with proton on that, that's a huge market. Lots of people with disposable income on there that c…
It isn't a huge market though. Mac has never been particularly big for gaming, they've always come in very low on the steam hardware survey. Now, post-ARM, it's beat by Linux even.
And you forget that one of the largest gaming platforms out there is the iphone. Which also doesn't show up in the steam hardware survey because steam doesn't run on it. The iphone market proves that there is a gaming market for typical Apple users. A very big market even. People that spend a lot of money on their phone also seem to like spending a lot of money in the app store. And mostly on games. Apple rakes in billions via the app store.
If Steam were to get Mac support to the same level it is on Linux, most of the games would start working and there are a shitload of Apple PCs and laptops out there that would be able to run that.
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not Valve's fault that user-space Linux is run by a bunch of unpaid headless chicken with no overarching vision, sense of momentum and direction, while Win32 is a rock-stable API that games are already using. Until there is a Linus figure that coordinates the userspace and organises a common platform API with long term support for closed-source software, Proton is the only pragmatic choice. Valve want to get off Wind…
> unpaid headless chicken with no overarching vision systemd, GNOME, mesa etc all have developers who are being paid by companies for their work (Red Hat, Microsoft, Canonical, SUSE etc). That said, you're not wrong on the 'no overarching vision' part, see Wayland. > Linus figure that coordinates the userspace and organises a common platform API Flatpak with the freedesktop runtimes are just this, that said some comp…
What we need is something that groups Qt/GTK, pipewire, part of systemd, part of flatpak, part of Wayland into a single library, a bit like Win32 is. And the guarantee that it remains stable even for closed source projects. For example Linux is free to change its internals and requires everything to be open, so drivers can be adapted whenever the APIs change. This is not good enough for a desktop API.
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
> unpaid headless chicken with no overarching vision systemd, GNOME, mesa etc all have developers who are being paid by companies for their work (Red Hat, Microsoft, Canonical, SUSE etc). That said, you're not wrong on the 'no overarching vision' part, see Wayland. > Linus figure that coordinates the userspace and organises a common platform API Flatpak with the freedesktop runtimes are just this, that said some comp…
Flatpak is not a common userspace library, just a set of sandboxed functions (i.e. portals). What we need is something that groups Qt/GTK, pipewire, part of systemd, part of flatpak, part of Wayland into a single library, a bit like Win32 is. And the guarantee that it remains stable even for closed source projects. For example Linux is free to change its internals and requires everything to be open, so drivers can be…
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the scenario that I am envisioning, Qualcomm will be indifferent to Intel products, the only focus being to extract the maximum money out of their purchase. Oracle did the same, and nearly all Sun products are now dead or a shadow of their former selves. Plus Oracle narrowly missed the Jackpot in Oracle v. Google. > Doubly so after already receiving over a billion in antitrust fines in 2009 for simply being "unfai…
Merging the 2 comment threads for simplicity: Taking all of your assumptions together as givens: - Intel's unacted claims around patents 7 years ago were valid in the first place. - No major government acts against the action because of simultaneous individual tentative politics in each and every single one. Including the EU, which has indeed blocked deals between 2 US companies even after the FTC has approved the me…
Keep in mind that the outlook for Intel products is not that rosy both short- and mid-term. They will certainly not go back to commanding historic margins in the datacenter. Also they lost trust from both institutional and private customers in how they handled the Raptor Lake voltage problem. Whether these customers come back anytime soon is doubtful.
Also on the manufacturing side, Intel foundries are bleeding money, 20A is cancelled, and 18A is yet unproven. So making back the purchase price off the usual business would likely take a looong time.
Yes, it is possible that Intel's patents on their instruction sets and on emulating them are all invalid, but Qualcomm is the kind of litigious company that seems determined to find out. (Their patents are also the presumed reason why Qualcomm is basically the last major vendor to offer AV1 hardware decode in their processors)
It is also possible that the EU blocks the merger but in the current political climate, the EU has become something of a vassal of the US. same politicians who pressure for replacement of Lina Khan will also exert pressure on the EU.
> MediaTek, Samsung, and Rockchip already make consumer ARM laptops
Yes, but them not being able to economically emulate newer x86 instructions would be a major sales point for Qualcomm Snapdragon. They could basically capture all the customers which are dependent on x86 software.
> Qualcomm's biggest advantage in the PC space was their exclusivity agreement with Microsoft for Windows on ARM but that is already dying at the end of the year
I think you got that backwards. The exclusivity was the precondition for Qualcomm to become interested in the Windows on ARM. Otherwise they would not even have bothered to release products specifically for that tiny market. It is Microsoft who desperately needs to become independent from x86.
> Qualcomm really did dump billions into Intel just to stop making their processors and it was allowed, how is Qualcomm going to get their money back at all let alone better than squeezing Intel normally without first killing its main source of revenue?
Qualcomm will continue to sell x86 processors, just like Oracle continued to sell SPARC processors, for a while. But they would wind down the x86 business and try to capture locked-in x86 customers onto (high-margin) Snapdragons, and they have all the ingredients to make this happen. And they will have the patents both on the design and manufacturing side to at least cause serious trouble for competitors.
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are fully dependent on Windows Games developed for Windows. They are only working really hard not to pay for Windows OS licences. The day they actually support native Linux games, instead of doing Windows API translation is when I believe they are actually serious about Linux games, and not saving OS licenses.
Valve got a scare with Windows 8 that they could be pushed off the platform.[0] It became clear to them that they were just guests in a house owned by Microsoft. That was in 2012, the first Steam Machine (running Linux) came out 3 years later and they've been working at it ever since. It's not about saving the cost of a license, it's about guaranteeing their own survival. As for "supporting native games," I take that…
It would work by placing carrots and whips in place for anyone that wants to target their shop, just like console vendors do.
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are fully dependent on Windows Games developed for Windows. They are only working really hard not to pay for Windows OS licences. The day they actually support native Linux games, instead of doing Windows API translation is when I believe they are actually serious about Linux games, and not saving OS licenses.
The cost of developing and maintaining Proton, Linux driver improvements, and their own Arch-based OS has probably exceeded the amount they saved by not shipping Windows on Steam Deck. But what they got in return is a much more usable gaming operating system that doesn't constantly pester you about switching to Edge, using Copilot or draining all your battery for an update while you game What they got in return is fr…
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are fully dependent on Windows Games developed for Windows. They are only working really hard not to pay for Windows OS licences. The day they actually support native Linux games, instead of doing Windows API translation is when I believe they are actually serious about Linux games, and not saving OS licenses.
> They are fully dependent on Windows Games developed for Windows. Sure, but they don't want to be dependent on Windows itself. If they can run all those Windows games on another OS, that's a win. Proton is pretty amazing, even if it's not 100%. And if game devs for some cataclysmic reason abandon Windows, they'll figure that out too.
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are fully dependent on Windows Games developed for Windows. They are only working really hard not to pay for Windows OS licences. The day they actually support native Linux games, instead of doing Windows API translation is when I believe they are actually serious about Linux games, and not saving OS licenses.
Seems this sentiment is coming up in every recent Proton related thread. Despite all the counterarguments offered each time. The simple reality is that there are decades worth of Windows games that will never have a Linux version. Because of the studios being gone. Because of the source code being lost. Because of the licensing issues for dependencies, assets, music. If not for the Valve efforts people would always n…
Re: Valve is testing ARM64 support for popular games
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
It isn't a huge market though. Mac has never been particularly big for gaming, they've always come in very low on the steam hardware survey. Now, post-ARM, it's beat by Linux even.
That's because Steam barely works on modern macs. After they killed 32 bit support, most of my games stopped working. Even at the best of times, only a fraction of the games worked on mac. And now with essentially all macs running arm processors, the only macs left running steam are from last decade. So all these surveys prove is that a market that they barely supported wasn't very large. And you forget that one of t…
Also, where is Apple's responsibility in all this? Steam this, Steam that. Apple changes arch, doesn't support vulkan and removes 32-bit support and then it's Steam's job to chase Apple? EA, Ubisoft, CD Project, Epic and Actiblizzard all also have store fronts and don't care to support mac. They could all be asleep behind the wheel, true. Or it could be that Apple makes it too annoying to support a platform that would barely yield any sales.
If Steam, a tiny company in comparison, and Codeweavers, also an tiny company in comparison, can get games to run on Proton+Linux then I'm pretty sure that Apple, with a little help from their trillion dollars, can manage something. But they also don't care cause Steam wont give 30%, which is Steam's fault of course.