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The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

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Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#241

Post by consteval »

lnenad wrote: post #179
-mlv wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt there are many people in tech with bad Internet. Worst case, there's Starlink. All other issues are easily solvable too, either with the right tools, or the right processes. (nb. I also think working at a coffee shop isn't for most people)

> All other issues are easily solvable too, either with the right tools, or the right processes. By coming back to the office?

Seems rather heavy-handed. I think you can, like, get better Zoom meeting without traveling 10 hours a week and using Zoom at a different computer.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#242

Post by JohnFen »

kitsune_ wrote: post #49
klodolph wrote: post #10

I’ve heard this argument before and I don’t buy it. By that, I mean it may be true (that people want to prop up real estate prices), but I don’t think that this is enough of an explanation. If it were just about real estate, then Amazon would not be calling for 5 days a week return-to-office. I don’t think real estate interests are powerful enough to push Amazon around and I don’t think they’re entrenched enough in A…

My theory, which is kind of informed by what I saw it play out in my company: The reason is a psychological one. Most leaders derive their power from in-person interactions. Remote and video calls severely impact that. Those leaders also love having an audience that needs to listen to them whenever they are in the room and the lack of that kind of feedback and adulation shellshocked a lot of them.

> Most leaders derive their power from in-person interactions.

I think that this is the heart of the issue. Everything else is relatively meaningless.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#243

Post by Propelloni »

miki123211 wrote: post #182
Propelloni wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously this is a multi-causal issue. RTO policies spring up for a variety of reasons, often a mix. All those negative narratives sure have some founding in reality, but maybe you can think of benevolent reasons why companies call for RTO? Here is an example. Ms. Follett [1] made a good case a century ago that value is not created by people but between people. So you need interaction to add value -- something compa…

All these "face-to-face meetings are better" arguments are predicated on the fact that all your teammates are on the same campus. That is just no longer true in a lot of companies these days. Even with mandatory, 5-day-per-week RTO, you may have 2 team members in the US, 2 in Europe and one in Bangalore, all in their respective offices in their respective timezones. The meetings are still happening over Zoom.

> All these "face-to-face meetings are better" arguments are predicated on the fact that all your teammates are on the same campus.

True. People need to be at least in the general vicinity, yes.

> you may have 2 team members in the US, 2 in Europe and one in Bangalore, all in their respective offices in their respective timezones

Also true, but even before COVID and 24/7 home office we knew that this kind of team setup sucks and we complained -- loudly -- whenever we had to work this way. And while technology improved the main reasons why we complained haven't changed. In short, that's not an argument for or against RTO, it is one against bad work organization.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#244

Post by kurthr »

kitsune_ wrote: post #49
klodolph wrote: post #10

I’ve heard this argument before and I don’t buy it. By that, I mean it may be true (that people want to prop up real estate prices), but I don’t think that this is enough of an explanation. If it were just about real estate, then Amazon would not be calling for 5 days a week return-to-office. I don’t think real estate interests are powerful enough to push Amazon around and I don’t think they’re entrenched enough in A…

My theory, which is kind of informed by what I saw it play out in my company: The reason is a psychological one. Most leaders derive their power from in-person interactions. Remote and video calls severely impact that. Those leaders also love having an audience that needs to listen to them whenever they are in the room and the lack of that kind of feedback and adulation shellshocked a lot of them.

I agree with the basis of this, but it assumes that a significant portion of people derive their influence and motivation by in-person interaction. Once you take that at face value, there are going to be things you can get done with that tool, that you can't otherwise. It's not a requirement for 5 day RTW, but it also speaks to the challenge of remote only work.

There's a reason people do LAN parties even when you have to lug your rig around, and it's not just food and drink.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#245

Post by aeze »

kurthr wrote: post #244
kitsune_ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory, which is kind of informed by what I saw it play out in my company: The reason is a psychological one. Most leaders derive their power from in-person interactions. Remote and video calls severely impact that. Those leaders also love having an audience that needs to listen to them whenever they are in the room and the lack of that kind of feedback and adulation shellshocked a lot of them.

I agree with the basis of this, but it assumes that a significant portion of people derive their influence and motivation by in-person interaction. Once you take that at face value, there are going to be things you can get done with that tool, that you can't otherwise. It's not a requirement for 5 day RTW, but it also speaks to the challenge of remote only work. There's a reason people do LAN parties even when you ha…

nostalgia?

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#246

Post by aeze »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #229
sensanaty wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if they're working an 8 hour work day it's because they're working two remote jobs at the same time. I'd love to see actual stats on this, because I hear it a lot on HN (pretty much exclusively from the pro-office side) but I can't imagine there's that many people doing this. Even if there was, why is this a problem? Presumably they're getting work done in those 4 hours that is satisfactory to the business, so…

> Who cares? Your manager, because your employment contract is about time spent, not works delivered.

Maybe yours is... they aren't all like that.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#247

Post by lnenad »

surgical_fire wrote: post #231
lnenad wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Desk, chair, lightning, monitors are easily googlable, too. All those things are part of the office and you don't have to pay for them. > Coming back to office creates more problems than it solves. Other than commute which could be a bitch in the US what other problems for the company do they create? Yes hanging out at home is nice for you/me, you can rest, nap, be with your kids, do chores, but how would this matt…

> All those things are part of the office and you don't have to pay for them. I gladly paid for them so I don't have to commute. Since going remote I could move to the countryside too. Bigger house, nicer environment, cheaper. My home office setup follows me if I switch jobs. > Yes hanging out at home is nice for you/me, you can rest, nap, be with your kids, do chores, but how would this matter to the company when pe…

> If you don't have the discipline to work when you are supposed to, that's a you problem.

Actually it's a company problem, that is precisely why this is one of the main reasons they are doing it and why it actually makes sense.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#248

Post by MaxHoppersGhost »

vishalontheline wrote: post #107
svara wrote: post #81

The borderline conspiracy theories on this are odd. If you're a manager, having a remote team is just harder. It can still work well with a certain type of people, people who are self directed and take pride in their work, but let's not fool ourselves into believing that's the only kind.

During quarantine, companies universally congratulated themselves and their staff on the boost in productivity that WFH enabled. The non self-directed types were still employed, and their productivity wasn't much better or worse, but I suspect that the self-directed team members were able to deliver even more than before.

WFH productivity was probably high at first but then people realized they could move to Tahoe and hike/ski during the workday.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#249

Post by aeze »

appendix-rock wrote: post #118

It’s kinda…interesting…to see the sort of people that think that this topic, and point of view, haven’t both been talked about to death. As with all things like this, the closer we get to the end of the line with this WFH discussion, the more utterly delusional (as to the originality of one’s POV) one has to be to choose to write yet another ‘think piece’ about it. As an effect of that, the more utterly braindead the…

Well, OP's POV is challenging you to reconcile your views with the information they presented. You say you prefer in-person for productivity reasons. TFA provides several sources indicating that working remote actually improves productivity.

So, you can either disagree with the books/studies based on your anecdotal experiences or specific circumstances, in which case the rest of the article isn't relevant to you (and unless you consider yourself an 'elite', it probably never was). Or you can understand that you may have a flawed understanding of the relationship between remote work and productivity, leading to your current opinion on the matter. Or you could have another motive, which may or may not be one of the reasons presented in the article. Which one sounds the most likely to you?

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