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The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

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Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#201
post #41

Ok, so which “elites” are holding real estate portfolios and creating these stories in the media bashing remote work? Who are they? I don’t think the world is so coordinated. Some people made a bad bet on real estate. Some other people want to write click bait pieces about lazy workers. Some other corporate leaders are scared that employees are goofing off outside the office (because productivity can’t be measured fo…

> I don’t think the world is so coordinated. The "think tanks" that are pre staffed and fully capable of churning out and placing 3x major long form articles per week that are pro or con {Subject X} (and an additional few that fence sit and are "just asking questions") already exist and have been about since at least Nine out of Ten Doctors Recommend Smoking . You know, 5+ decades ago. The "elites" that are losing mo…

"Source Attribution" gets a whole subtree in Linebarger's 1954 propanal scheme:

  a. Source
    (1) True source ("Where does it really come from?")
      (a) Release channel ("How did it come out?") if different from true source without concealing true source
      (b) Person or institution in whose name material originates
      (c) Transmitting channel ("Who got it to us?"), person or institution effecting known transmission—omitting, of course, analyst's own procurement facilities
    (2) Ostensible source ("Where does it pretend to come from?")
      (a) Release channel ("Who is supposed to be passing it along?")
    (3) First-use and second-use source (first use, "Who is said to have used this first?"; second use, "Who pretends to be quoting someone else?")
      (a) Connection between second-use source and first-use source, usually in the form of attributed or unacknowledged quotation; more rarely, plagiarism
      (b) Modification between use by first-use and second-use sources, when both are known
        (i) Deletions
        (ii) Changes in text
        (iii) Enclosure within editorial matter of transmitter
        (iv) Falsification which appears deliberate
        (v) Effects of translation from one language to another
(nb a.3.b.iv suggests "fake news" is not a recent phenomenon; indeed, Linebarger's book provides biblical examples)

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#202

I’ve heard this argument before and I don’t buy it. By that, I mean it may be true (that people want to prop up real estate prices), but I don’t think that this is enough of an explanation. If it were just about real estate, then Amazon would not be calling for 5 days a week return-to-office. I don’t think real estate interests are powerful enough to push Amazon around and I don’t think they’re entrenched enough in A…

There is no conspiracy theory here. Most people will work 4 hour work days when working remotely. (And if they're working an 8 hour work day it's because they're working two remote jobs at the same time.) "No loss of productivity" is a flat out lie.

> And if they're working an 8 hour work day it's because they're working two remote jobs at the same time.

I'd love to see actual stats on this, because I hear it a lot on HN (pretty much exclusively from the pro-office side) but I can't imagine there's that many people doing this. Even if there was, why is this a problem? Presumably they're getting work done in those 4 hours that is satisfactory to the business, so what if they do some work on the side as well? Who cares?

I do hybrid (2 times a week in the office) and don't mind it, but I know for a fact that pretty much every single person in my team does much less work on the office days than when they're remote, because we're mostly socializing, taking coffee breaks and taking full advantage of our 1-hour lunch break (rather than the 15 minutes it takes at home to just eat the meal). Most of us will even opt out of office days when we have a big deadline.

Hell, I'm much less productive at the office simply because the chairs & monitors suck. At home I've got a quad 4K monitor setup in an extremely comfortable chair, my own desk, my own food & beverages of choice, my own music blasting as loud (or quiet) as I want it. How could I be more productive in the office?

Turns out most people aren't mischievous children that have to be under constant supervision to get work done, and in fact they were better when given the freedom to approach the work in a way that suits them best.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#203
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant evidence of them campaigning, or financing/instigating campaigns, against remote work, thereby influencing decisions of companies to implement "back to work" policies. ETA: I agree that you did not say this was happening in your original comment, but it seems to me your comment implied that these companies were actually influencing major decisions (since that's the topic of the OP).

https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/blackrocks-larry-fink-vows-har... Blackrock is a major institutional investor in just about every company, so they have press and backchannel effects. I assume similar things happen with e.g. vanguard and big ibanks. I know Jamie Dimon has been railing about RTO for a while.

Thanks, though I'll note that that article is about Blackrock encouraging/forcing its own workers to do hybrid work, not arguing that other companies should do so.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#204

This is maybe the stupidest article I've yet to see discussed on HN. This person thinks that multibillion dollar companies would be willing to sacrifice productivity to prop up the minor real estate assets they hold at the expense of their revenue and market cap?

I've seen multibilion dollar companies sacrifice productivity for even more retarded reasons.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know this "most" stat? And if there are people working 4 hours a day remotely, how productive do you think those same people are just because they're sat in an office? Nutshell: I think this is a nonsense argument.

It's not a nonsense argument. If you're sitting in an office twiddling your thumbs for 4 hours a day you're not defrauding your employer. If you're at home working a second job (or mowing your lawn) for 4 hours a day then you're committing fraud and violating your contract with your employer. Fundamentally it's a legal issue about fraud. If you want remote work then you need a very different kind of employment contra…

> If you're sitting in an office twiddling your thumbs for 4 hours a day you're not defrauding your employer.

So you just want to lord over the minions, even if they're not actually doing anything for half the day? You don't actually care about productivity, you just care that you can exert your power over them and have them rot in a cubicle doing nothing, even if they were doing equal amounts of work in both situations.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#206
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/blackrocks-larry-fink-vows-har... Blackrock is a major institutional investor in just about every company, so they have press and backchannel effects. I assume similar things happen with e.g. vanguard and big ibanks. I know Jamie Dimon has been railing about RTO for a while.

Thanks, though I'll note that that article is about Blackrock encouraging/forcing its own workers to do hybrid work, not arguing that other companies should do so.

It's more than that, if you read the part below the fold they talk about "if we get more people back into offices the Fed's job will be easier", which I assume goes to a more systemic argument anyway. Cheers!

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#207
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you link some think tank pieces arguing against remote work? That's not the argument I made in my comment. I simply noted that if anyone wanted to hire a group to argue for (or against) remote work then such groups already exist and have done for decades. If there's a coordinated press placing of "back to work" articles then the starting point would be all the articles that make that case (or talk about that su…

You were responding to a comment saying the world is not so coordinated by giving some examples of how coordination might happen. I gave some evidence that coordination of the type you mentioned does not seem to happen, at least for the topic being discussed, suggesting that the world is indeed not so coordinated (at least in this instance).

> I gave some evidence that coordination of the type you mentioned

was not readily apparent to yourself.

> does not seem to happen, at least for the topic being discussed,

to the best of your ability to discern such activity, if it exists.

> suggesting that the world is indeed not so coordinated (at least in this instance).

suggesting that you were unable to find such coordination in this instance; not in any way negating the point that such agencies do exist and do take on contracts to shape a public narrative to the degree possible with the resources given.

I have no knowledge of your skill levels at picking out such media shenanigans, while they absolutely do happen in general I have no basis with which to weight your inability to find any specific evidence in this instance.

More to the dynamic of the exchange, you asked if I had any personal knowledge of US remote articles being dropped in the US public sphere to order and I responded that I have no interest in such articles in the US public sphere and thus have no such knowledge. That ancedatal singular fact has no bearing on whether such a thing is or isn't happening.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#208
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by think piece but you can see negative stories everywhere. The following pulled from current news on remote work: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=remote+work&atb=v379-1&iar=news&ia... https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/from-digital-nomad-to-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/julianhayesii/2024/09/22/is-ama... https://bmmagazine.co.uk/in-business/rachel-reeves-urges-end... https://…

None of those are think tanks.

These are all media outlets.

"Think Tanks" "agencies" etc place articles in media outlets by a variety of means (if in fact this is what is taking place).

Media outlets in general are starved for income compared to yester years and are increasingly easy to place material with.

The first link is Euro-centric, the second is Forbes with a contributed piece by an outside writer ( Julian Hayes II ) who has written a number of articles across a number of media outlets that are pro return to the office.

Is this a truly independant free opinion he is spruiking?

Is this an opinion he gets addition income from a third party for supporting?

I personally have no idea, but this is a hint of how to backtrace content sourcing.

It's not unlike working back through subsidiary shell corporations, etc.

Re: The war on remote work has nothing to do with productivity

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon wants retention? That seems very strange and counter-intuitive. When did this happen?

I wrote that Amazon wants “attrition”, which means the opposite.

Sorry I don't know how I made that mistake.
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