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The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

thewalrus.ca

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Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#91

Post by passion__desire »

HPsquared wrote: post #37
passion__desire wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think stoic ideas are from an era where their circumstances made them have those principles. We don't live in that era. It is possible to affect others and the associated cascading effect that can bring about a change in others action which were affecting you negatively. If Naval's idea of "individuals having leverage holds water" directly implies that you can change others, albiet slowly. If your reach becomes big…

You think Marcus Aurelius was unable to affect other peoples' actions? That's not the idea. The point is that you can't directly make someone else think or feel a certain way, only act on them externally.

If causality holds, acting externally will have changes to internal assessments assuming good faith dialogue. Plus Marcus Aurelius was helpless in that it would take him lot of time and energy to give personal attention to each individual and clarify their doubts. He didn't have the technology to record his thoughts on a topic and refer people to it.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#93

Post by tgdude »

bbor wrote: post #56
skissane wrote: post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

Interesting! If I said you were bad at your job and an ugly, inattentive partner, would your primary reaction be one of hurt or just one of calculating self-preservation? I would personally feel very emotional if I heard those things from someone in real life, so it’s an honest question. What emotionally drives you, if not the assessments of your peers? Why excel at work, why find a partner, why do your best to be be…

Not the person you're replying to but

"What emotionally drives you, if not the assessments of your peers? Why excel at work, why find a partner, why do your best to be better everyday?"

It's fun and it makes me happy. People in my life are smart people but they're just as flawed as I am, what they think of me also changes over time. Why would I build the foundation of my life and career on such shaky ground?

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#94

Post by wpietri »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #83
wpietri wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because upvotes control visibility, you are still describing a reward function that depends on the upvote.

I think they explicitly said the opposite. That the writing is their reward, and comments are always visible to the author. Visibility to other humans is incidental, or at least a secondary concern.

They explicitly said, "If others see it, great. If not, no big deal."

So I agree they get some reward from the writing. (Like all writers do, and like we can all do just as well with a journal.) But the part I just quoted is clearly part of the reward function, and just as clearly the total reward increases with others seeing it. Which on HN is controlled by upvotes.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#95

Post by chuckadams »

passion__desire wrote: post #91
HPsquared wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think Marcus Aurelius was unable to affect other peoples' actions? That's not the idea. The point is that you can't directly make someone else think or feel a certain way, only act on them externally.

If causality holds, acting externally will have changes to internal assessments assuming good faith dialogue. Plus Marcus Aurelius was helpless in that it would take him lot of time and energy to give personal attention to each individual and clarify their doubts. He didn't have the technology to record his thoughts on a topic and refer people to it.

> He didn't have the technology to record his thoughts on a topic and refer people to it.

He did and we’re still reading them to this day.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#96

Post by darby_nine »

orbisvicis wrote: post #55
skissane wrote: post #4

The other day I was talking to a psychologist about [difficult personal situation which I am unable to discuss publicly] and she said to me “This must be really damaging to your self-worth.” And, my honest internal reaction to her statement (although I didn’t say it out loud to her) was “Self-worth, what is that?” Because I’m not sure if I have any? I don’t mean that in the negative sense that I think I am worthless…

The flip side of detaching self-esteem from technical competency is that you can make very strong assertions without being arrogant. People of integrity with utilitarian leaning are often labeled amoral or unemotional. People with a strong drive not attached to financial gain are often termed unambitious. Your perceived worth really depends on values of society, so if you remove yourself from the equation, you only h…

> People of integrity with utilitarian leaning are often labeled amoral or unemotional.

Utilitarianism is a moral concept. I think you just mean analytical.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#97

Post by orbisvicis »

detourdog wrote: post #77
orbisvicis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side of detaching self-esteem from technical competency is that you can make very strong assertions without being arrogant. People of integrity with utilitarian leaning are often labeled amoral or unemotional. People with a strong drive not attached to financial gain are often termed unambitious. Your perceived worth really depends on values of society, so if you remove yourself from the equation, you only h…

My partner considers my deliberateness as lazy. They won’t discuss things with me because they already know all about me. My willingness to share their perception of me being ineffective was quite damaging to my self esteem. I never felt successful due to lack of acknowledgment of my achievements. They asked me to leave the house about a year ago. Once I met new people and they saw me as successful and fun my self wo…

Yes, that's why I qualified self-worth by field of competency. I really try to view the world objectively, ignoring the opinions of others, but after N fizzled relationships... is it me or is it you?

But just because you are detached from societal values doesn't imply you should be detached from people. I can't enumerate the intangibles I get by surrounding myself with others. I perform better, I have better ideas, I feel more alert. I've never been able to understand why as I never gain any objective aid. Does unexpected input promote flexible thinking? Am I inspired by differing worldviews to think outside the box. Or is it simple happiness? No idea.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#98

Post by s1artibartfast »

InkCanon wrote: post #36
nemo44x wrote: post #9

What I love about these types of articles is it reminds me how fortunate I am to live in the wealthiest and most comfortable time Earth has ever seen and it’s very likely to get better. These types of existential panics aren’t possible when you’re sustenance farming as nearly every human that has existed was forced by nature to endure until a painful, horrifying death from disease or illness perished them. In order t…

Depends on what you mean by good. In Maslow's pyramid, the lowest levels are being optimised for while the highest are suffering greatly. By what are approximate proxies for high level metrics like self fulfilment and satisfaction, things are getting worse (especially in young people). Rates of suicide, depression, mental illness, self harm, addictions (drugs and alcohol), obesity, levels of social interaction, stres…

Im more positive on the topic, and think what we are seeing is growing pains, and they are not equally distributed.

Almost all of our historic writings wrestling with the higher levels of the pyramid came from social elites, and now vast swaths of humanity are able (or forced) to wrestle with these tough questions.

Many people seem to be avoidant and running from these tough questions to their own detriment, but culture takes time to adjust.

I think your points about levels of self fulfillment and satisfaction are strong evidence that the destination state of Brave New World is unstable equilibrium at best. Most people being miserable from their own existential angst is not long sustainable in an environment where the cognitive tools to overcome it exist and are available.

I think culture will adapt because I think there is a lot of selection pressure favoring being well adapted. People will look at those with fulfillment and satisfaction and emulate them. Thats what I try to do. Right now just happens be a tough time for a lot of people to identify that because we are in a period of transition.

I think people will have a much better sense of which one of us is correct 5 generations from now.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#99

Post by MichaelZuo »

BelleOfTheBall wrote: post #72
nahimn wrote: post #8

Call me unempathetic, but how would this be any different in a non-digital era? You’ll still have a market (albeit significantly smaller, IE: lets say a small locale or village). But you could have easily said the same thing in a non-digital age, with just more rudimentary metrics and a market that is a community that either values or doesn’t value your work. Much like the proverbial school playground (which could al…

Technology amplifies this, greatly. In a non-digital era our field of view was narrow, expanding either to our immediate physical surroundings or, when we went beyond them, limited by what we could read in a newspaper or see on TV. When I was little, I didn't know who was the most skilled person at my hobby or how popular it was or whether beautiful people online also happened to excel at it, while my teenage hormone…

How did the child of a random peasant family 300 years ago 'formulate self-worth'?

I don't see how digital technology diminishes that in relative comparison.

Re: The Collapse of Self-Worth in the Digital Age

#100

Post by s1artibartfast »

wpietri wrote: post #94
s1artibartfast wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they explicitly said the opposite. That the writing is their reward, and comments are always visible to the author. Visibility to other humans is incidental, or at least a secondary concern.

They explicitly said, "If others see it, great. If not, no big deal." So I agree they get some reward from the writing. (Like all writers do, and like we can all do just as well with a journal.) But the part I just quoted is clearly part of the reward function, and just as clearly the total reward increases with others seeing it. Which on HN is controlled by upvotes.

They also said "Sometimes it's nice just to formulate thoughts in writing". "Just" implies sufficient reward. Visibility is a part of the reward function, but it is not dependent on it.
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