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ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

esr.ibiblio.org

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Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#51

Post by mhartl »

scott_s wrote: post #43
mhartl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English law punished homosexuality with chemical castration, but (according to ESR) Turing could easily have avoided this fate. Was Turing thus a "victim" of "oppression"? We're quibbling about words. Your notions of "victim" and "oppression" are simply different from ESR's. (Note: I'm confident that ESR isn't in favor of chemical castration for homosexuals.)

Apparently. I feel that if someone suffers due to a bigoted policy, then that person is the victim of oppression. He seems to think that it is not "oppression" if the person who suffers had an out. The mental gymnastics bit come in when he tries to gel that with what demonstrators suffered during the civil rights movement, which he does classify as oppression.

Was Einstein the victim of oppression? How about Feynman?

If "No", how does that jibe with your definition?

If "Yes", is being a victim of oppression necessarily that big a deal? (Both Einstein and Feynman seemed to do OK for themselves.)

(Note that nothing here excuses or condones the antisemitism that affected both Einstein and Feynman.)

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#52

Post by scott_s »

mikeash wrote: post #44
scott_s wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I think jgrahamc clearly countered Raymond's points there at the top of this thread.

Yep, exactly what I was going to say. There's a certain mindset that delights in anything that goes against conventional wisdom. Sometimes this is really useful, but the thing is that conventional wisdom is actually right most of the time. A knee-jerk reaction to believe anything that goes against conventional wisdom is no better than a knee-jerk reaction to disbelieve it. A lot of people have this tendency, even ver…

Personally, I disregarded the story once it claimed that Turing being outwardly happy was evidence he was not suicidal. I thought it was well-known that someone may be suicidal and hide it from everyone. Once I realized the author didn't understand that, I had no trust in everything else he said.

Anyway, that's a good explanation of a phenomenon I have observed as well.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#53

Post by rictic »

mhartl wrote: post #35
mikeash wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Einstein had been killed in the Holocaust I bet at least as much would be made of that as is made of Turing's homosexuality and the deadly consequences. It is important that the British government, at the end, cared more about who he wanted to have sex with than his great mental capabilities, and thus destroyed this intellect well before his time. Sure, it's not as important as Turing's important theoretical and p…

The premise of your comment is one of the main points disputed in ESR's essay, namely, the claim that Turing's death was related to his oppression as a homosexual. It's as if, despite Einstein not dying in the Holocaust, for political purposes people continued to speak as if he did.

Ok, then, imagine that Einstein had died in such a way that it was very plausible (likely even) but not ironclad certain that he had died in the holocaust. I think mikeash's point still holds.

There's a level of uncertainty under which, I agree, it would seem forced and I'd wish that folks would look for another exemplar. By my analysis, and from my perspective the circumstances of Turing's life and death are not so uncertain.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#54

Post by mikeash »

mhartl wrote: post #48
mikeash wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He could have easily avoided this fate? How? As far as I know, Turing's choices were either 1) chemical castration 2) prison 3) stop having sex with people he was attracted to. Which of those alternatives qualifies as "not oppression"?

You're arguing with ESR, not with me. ESR implies that there was another alternative. My role in this is to explain ESR's position and to defend its correctness assuming his premises are true . My role is not to defend his premises, which in fact I am unqualified to do.

Not sure I understand the point of that. Is ESR somehow less wrong for saying Turing wasn't a victim of oppression if he says this because he's mistaken about what Turing was faced with?

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#55

Post by scott_s »

mhartl wrote: post #51
scott_s wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently. I feel that if someone suffers due to a bigoted policy, then that person is the victim of oppression. He seems to think that it is not "oppression" if the person who suffers had an out. The mental gymnastics bit come in when he tries to gel that with what demonstrators suffered during the civil rights movement, which he does classify as oppression.

Was Einstein the victim of oppression? How about Feynman? If "No", how does that jibe with your definition? If "Yes", is being a victim of oppression necessarily that big a deal? (Both Einstein and Feynman seemed to do OK for themselves.) (Note that nothing here excuses or condones the antisemitism that affected both Einstein and Feynman.)

Einstein fled Europe because of it. That seems like "a big deal" to me. That he "did OK" for himself afterwards does not somehow make having to leave your home continent less of a big deal.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#56

Post by scott_s »

mhartl wrote: post #50
scott_s wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I think jgrahamc clearly countered Raymond's points there at the top of this thread.

You're arguing with ESR, not with me. My role in this is to explain ESR's position and to defend its correctness assuming his premises are true . My role is not to defend his premises, which in fact I am unqualified to do.

That's fine. I wanted the record to show that someone else had handily countered ESR's points.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#57

Post by haberman »

mikeash wrote: post #45
mhartl wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English law punished homosexuality with chemical castration, but (according to ESR) Turing could easily have avoided this fate. Was Turing thus a "victim" of "oppression"? We're quibbling about words. Your notions of "victim" and "oppression" are simply different from ESR's. (Note: I'm confident that ESR isn't in favor of chemical castration for homosexuals.)

He could have easily avoided this fate? How? As far as I know, Turing's choices were either 1) chemical castration 2) prison 3) stop having sex with people he was attracted to. Which of those alternatives qualifies as "not oppression"?

It's not clear to me that (3) was an option that would have helped him avoid (1) or (2): he was found guilty of a previous "crime," and (1) and (2) were his two options for punishment/"rehabilitation".

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#58

Post by Peaker »

portlander12345 wrote: post #29
fusiongyro wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ESR should be ashamed. For saying that Turing should be remembered for his accomplishments rather than for the circumstances of his death?

For the company he keeps. Comment on that blog enough and pretty soon a regular will threaten to come to your house and beat you up. This has happened to me twice and I've seen it happen to others; multiple perps, regulars and seemingly friends of ESR. Basically, the crowd he attracts is smart in some ways but uncivilized. It's a waste and a disappointment.

Isn't that police complaint worthy?

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#59

Post by seanmcq »

Can we just delete this entire meme before it gets started? This is pathetic.

Edit: To clarify, I mean everything said by ESR here. Yes Turings accomplishments are great. However, it's because of those great accomplishments that what the British government did is even more atrocious. Turing made key and irreplaceable contributions to the Allied war effort, and this was repaid by bigotry.

Also, when ESR blamed turing for his castration was just... bigoted.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#60

Post by rictic »

mhartl wrote: post #51
scott_s wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently. I feel that if someone suffers due to a bigoted policy, then that person is the victim of oppression. He seems to think that it is not "oppression" if the person who suffers had an out. The mental gymnastics bit come in when he tries to gel that with what demonstrators suffered during the civil rights movement, which he does classify as oppression.

Was Einstein the victim of oppression? How about Feynman? If "No", how does that jibe with your definition? If "Yes", is being a victim of oppression necessarily that big a deal? (Both Einstein and Feynman seemed to do OK for themselves.) (Note that nothing here excuses or condones the antisemitism that affected both Einstein and Feynman.)

They were both also victims of oppression, in different ways and to different degrees. A large number of people were and are.

More attention is paid to the oppression that Turing underwent because it seems likely that it was a major factor in his death. If Einstein's life had been ended at a young age, but after he had made contributions to physics that made clear what had been lost, his death and the circumstances around it would be a large part of what we remember about him.

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