ESR: Abusing Alan Turing • Hacker News Board

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#31

Post by zacharyvoase » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:13 PM UTC

Yes, it matters that Turing was gay. Yes, it matters that he committed suicide after being forced to undergo hormone treatment. Children and adults still get bullied every day for being gay, and people still feel uncomfortable coming out of the closet. Countless governments around the world, including the United States, still don't recognise the civil rights of gay humans, which broadcasts an unequivocal message to me and others like me that we are unwelcome, abnormal, and should be ashamed of ourselves. Turing was a genius, doubtless, but the tragedy of his suffering because of an oppressive government is a harrowing case study in how absolutely screwed up things can get, no matter how smart or important you are. The brilliance of Turing, and the shocking circumstances of his death, do not detract from one another. I strongly disagree with the portrayal of this as some kind of zero-sum match between the two aspects of his life.

The LGBT community has been actively fighting oppression for nearly a century. 80 years ago, the Nazi party started ostracising and killing homosexuals. 43 years ago the Stonewall riots occurred, during which LGBT Americans staged an act of civil disobedience that is still remembered in Pride and Christopher Street events around the world (and yet it was only in 2003 that ‘sodomy’ laws were ruled unconstitutional). We're looking back on decades of an AIDS crisis where gay men in first-world countries have had to fight[1] for access to life-saving experimental drugs, and looking forward to a future (which may still be a long way off) where the United States, and other governments, recognise that gay people are people too.

So you know what? I think we're allowed one measly fucking ‘hero’ figure. And if you don't want our gay voices ruining your programming idols, here's a very simple solution: stop persecuting the gay ones.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_Coalition_to_Unleash_Power...

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#32

Post by mikeash » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #23

It's evident from some of the comments that many HN readers have misunderstood ESR's points about Alan Turing. What ESR is saying is that "a homosexual who committed suicide because of anti-gay oppression" has become a key part of the Turing narrative, not because of the facts of the matter, but because it serves the political agenda of those who propagate the myth. This dynamic manifests itself both in the co-opting…

If Einstein had been killed in the Holocaust I bet at least as much would be made of that as is made of Turing's homosexuality and the deadly consequences.

It is important that the British government, at the end, cared more about who he wanted to have sex with than his great mental capabilities, and thus destroyed this intellect well before his time.

Sure, it's not as important as Turing's important theoretical and practical work in computing. But that doesn't mean it's not important. It's a cautionary tale and one we should take to heart. How many potential geniuses are we stopping right now because of the unjust things in our society? What are we losing out on? It deserves some thought.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#33

Post by swa14 » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:27 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #23

It's evident from some of the comments that many HN readers have misunderstood ESR's points about Alan Turing. What ESR is saying is that "a homosexual who committed suicide because of anti-gay oppression" has become a key part of the Turing narrative, not because of the facts of the matter, but because it serves the political agenda of those who propagate the myth. This dynamic manifests itself both in the co-opting…

Raymond, as is his wont, sets up a strawman and proceeds to set it on fire pitching himself as a champion of "the just side".

It's a strawman, because in truth the only important part about Turing's life in view of his accomplishments is that it was cut short. i.e. his genius could no longer produce progress. Whether this would have been due to suicide, an accident, or murder is not relevant. It is not relevant because for the people under which his work was meant to be dissipated (people in the same field), the circumstances in which the results are produced are of no importance.

Because of the progress he produced he became a people's hero to his country. People think about and tell tales about their heroes and their lives and circumstances. Irrespective of the direction these tales take, the accomplishments stand on their own among his peers, to wit, those who can actually understand the accomplishments.

Whether people appropriate a part of a life of a hero to underline certain aspects of it, or deny parts of it to underline other aspects of it, matters not one iota.

The facts of the matter are. "The work of Alan Turing was seminal to the entire field of computer science." The rest is history, and, as sometimes happens with history, can be rewritten by whomever needs the pageviews.

"this sort of politically motivated myth-making diminishes the object of the myth"

And any sort of tug of war between two sides who purport to propagate "the true story" is part of this myth. Pretending otherwise is just disingenuous.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#34

Post by adrianhoward » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:33 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #2

"The centennial of Alan Turing’s birth brings us the news that Alan Turing probably did not commit suicide by eating a poisoned apple, was not depressed at the time of his death, and that the hormone treatments intended to suppress his homosexual urges had been discontinued a year before he died." Raymond is referring to this BBC article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18561092 It was (distastefully IM…

I'd recommend everybody go read Jon maddog Hall's post http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4158627 instead/as well as ESR's piece.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#35

Post by mhartl » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:39 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #32

mhartl wrote: post #23

It's evident from some of the comments that many HN readers have misunderstood ESR's points about Alan Turing. What ESR is saying is that "a homosexual who committed suicide because of anti-gay oppression" has become a key part of the Turing narrative, not because of the facts of the matter, but because it serves the political agenda of those who propagate the myth. This dynamic manifests itself both in the co-opting…

If Einstein had been killed in the Holocaust I bet at least as much would be made of that as is made of Turing's homosexuality and the deadly consequences. It is important that the British government, at the end, cared more about who he wanted to have sex with than his great mental capabilities, and thus destroyed this intellect well before his time. Sure, it's not as important as Turing's important theoretical and p…

The premise of your comment is one of the main points disputed in ESR's essay, namely, the claim that Turing's death was related to his oppression as a homosexual. It's as if, despite Einstein not dying in the Holocaust, for political purposes people continued to speak as if he did.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#36

Post by ChristianMarks » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

ESR's libertarian take is unimpressive as always. ESR has his own political reasons for minimizing the likely connection between Turing's suicide and his hormone treatment--as if hormone treatment weren't gruesome enough, and were completely free of psychological side effects. A logician would invoke Beth's theorem on unions of theories and ignore a math professor's tawdry speculation on the circumstances of Turing's death.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#37

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:47 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #27

mhartl wrote: post #23

It's evident from some of the comments that many HN readers have misunderstood ESR's points about Alan Turing. What ESR is saying is that "a homosexual who committed suicide because of anti-gay oppression" has become a key part of the Turing narrative, not because of the facts of the matter, but because it serves the political agenda of those who propagate the myth. This dynamic manifests itself both in the co-opting…

I read through some of the comments. Raymond is clearly arguing that Turing was not the victim of oppression. The mental gymnastics he contorts through to arrive at this conclusion are baffling.

[deleted]

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#38

Post by mediacrisis » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #25

papsosouid wrote: post #17

Yes of course Eric, it's all just liberal propaganda. We should all hate gays just like you since a bullshit article claims Turing was pretty happy. Certainly people who advocate for basic human rights are just "partisans".

Who would you have decide which rights are "basic human rights"? I'm guessing it's people like you, i.e., progressives. If that's not partisan, I don't know what is. I also fear you've misunderstood ESR. See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4158468 for a clarification.

Its "partisan" to think things like forced hormone therapy (and in some countries, not excluding our own: corrective rape and systematic abuse) is a bad thing, and dare we say, a violation of basic human rights? I'm sorry, I don't care who you are or what your politics are, thats messed up.

Giving other people rights doesn't take them away from the people who already have them.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#39

Post by mhartl » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:58 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #27

mhartl wrote: post #23

It's evident from some of the comments that many HN readers have misunderstood ESR's points about Alan Turing. What ESR is saying is that "a homosexual who committed suicide because of anti-gay oppression" has become a key part of the Turing narrative, not because of the facts of the matter, but because it serves the political agenda of those who propagate the myth. This dynamic manifests itself both in the co-opting…

I read through some of the comments. Raymond is clearly arguing that Turing was not the victim of oppression. The mental gymnastics he contorts through to arrive at this conclusion are baffling.

English law punished homosexuality with chemical castration, but (according to ESR) Turing could easily have avoided this fate. Was Turing thus a "victim" of "oppression"? We're quibbling about words. Your notions of "victim" and "oppression" are simply different from ESR's. (Note: I'm confident that ESR isn't in favor of chemical castration for homosexuals.)

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#40

Post by scott_s » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:59 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #35

mikeash wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Einstein had been killed in the Holocaust I bet at least as much would be made of that as is made of Turing's homosexuality and the deadly consequences. It is important that the British government, at the end, cared more about who he wanted to have sex with than his great mental capabilities, and thus destroyed this intellect well before his time. Sure, it's not as important as Turing's important theoretical and p…

The premise of your comment is one of the main points disputed in ESR's essay, namely, the claim that Turing's death was related to his oppression as a homosexual. It's as if, despite Einstein not dying in the Holocaust, for political purposes people continued to speak as if he did.

And I think jgrahamc clearly countered Raymond's points there at the top of this thread.