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Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

olivergrimsley.com

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Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#161

Post by wkat4242 »

labster wrote: post #92
squarefoot wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the AdNauseam extension is so hated by Google et al. It doesn't eliminate ads but rather fights against them using a different approach: polluting the well. It is built on Ublock Origin so it indeed blocks ads, but aside doing that it also silently clicks on all of them so that data collected by advertising companies suddenly become useless. https://adnauseam.io/

I don’t get the argument. Sure it makes Google ad targeting worse, why would Google care? They have monopoly power in online ads and targeting doesn’t work that well anyway. As long as people keep buying the gimmick, no amount of bad data will amount to anything.

Yeah and not enough people do it. That's the biggest problem.

If enough people do it, it will have an effect. Remember when Apple pulled the advertiser ID unless users opted in? That really got the ad industry barking. That they feel. Ad Nauseam they don't. It's way too fringey.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#162

Post by latexr »

ruthmarx wrote: post #156
latexr wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and thee cookie popups are the best way to do that. No, the best way to do it is not invade people’s privacy. You can have ads without targeting (we did it forever before the internet) and you do not need cookie warnings if your cookies aren’t invasive. https://commission.europa.eu/resources-partners/europa-web-g... > The activity isn't illegal, and the EU didn't make it illegal. Indeed that is a shame. If only.

> No, the best way to do it is not invade people’s privacy. You can have ads without targeting You are deliberately missing the point and shifting the goalposts. You're talking about asking a business voluntarily not engage in lucrative legal business activities. Why would they do that? There are so many more important things business should voluntarily abstain from by that reasoning. No, as long as the behavior rema…

> You're talking about asking a business voluntarily not engage in lucrative legal business activities. Why would they do that?

It is baffling that you can make that claim without realising your mistake. Yes indeed, why would businesses do that voluntarily? The answer is they aren’t doing it voluntarily, they are forced by law. In other words, the EU has made the practice illegal. Specifically, it is illegal to engage in that data collection without consent.

Let’s take tobacco warning labels as another example. Governments decided that tobacco companies have to print large warnings on cigarette packs. They didn’t make it illegal to sell tobacco, but if you want to do it you have to include those labels.

https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/labeling-and-warning-st...

Do you also blame governments for mandating those warning labels and would prefer there to be none? I mean, you do you, but please don’t accuse others of goal shifting and dishonesty simply because you misunderstood an argument. My position has remained consistent, I gave the poison example (which you chose to ignore) in the first post.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#163

Post by latexr »

ruthmarx wrote: post #157
troupo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU: Don't track users, don't obtain vast amounts of data on users, don't sell that data to third parties. If you you do, ask users for informed consent. Industry: we hear you. Here's "informed consent" form riddled with dark patterns because we believe that all data is ours by God's decree, and our 15 000 "partners" agree with us ... HN: The EU is to blame for this

What would the 'light' pattern be in this case, where the business wants to comply with regulation and maximize profit?

Make a good product that does not rely on exploiting user data. Advertise in relevant locations without tracking (e.g. if you sell cars, advertise on a car-centric website/forum/magazine).

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#164

Post by simonsarris »

latexr wrote: post #148
joenot443 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legislation by the EU is why the popups are there. It really is that simple.

The popups are there because these websites are invading your privacy. It really is that simple. Or, to be fair to all parties, they are there because continuous abuse by the industry forced governmental action. Don’t invade user’s privacy and you don’t need cookie banners. Can’t get simpler than that. https://commission.europa.eu/resources-partners/europa-web-g...

I just got a banner from that EU website. Clearly they think it necessary, and they're not a business.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#165

Post by latexr »

krick wrote: post #152
troupo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU: Don't track users, don't obtain vast amounts of data on users, don't sell that data to third parties. If you you do, ask users for informed consent. Industry: we hear you. Here's "informed consent" form riddled with dark patterns because we believe that all data is ours by God's decree, and our 15 000 "partners" agree with us ... HN: The EU is to blame for this

This is correct. However, I always thought that legislation is pretty stupid. It isn't exactly comparable to alcohol/tobacco warnings. Actually, I always thought they are stupid too, but at least they can count as an "informed nonsent", since it's pretty clear, what's the harm they are taking about. Cookies, on the other hand... Even for me, who was perfectly aware of the problem long before this legislation, and who…

The cookie law and GDPR are often conflated, but they are different things. It doesn’t help that websites engage in malicious compliance, thus making everything more confusing.

I’ll leave you with two links. The first explains which kinds of cookies do not require consent. You’ll see the list is pretty reasonable. The second is to noyb, a non-profit fighting for privacy (the name means “none of your business”), who has been doing good work thanks to the GDPR.

https://commission.europa.eu/resources-partners/europa-web-g...

https://noyb.eu/

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#166

Post by zmnd »

gruturo wrote: post #154
joenot443 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legislation by the EU is why the popups are there. It really is that simple.

Do you also blame your doctor for correctly diagnosing your illness?

If a doctor diagnosed me with the same result every time I go to another room, yes I would.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#167

Post by latexr »

simonsarris wrote: post #164
latexr wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popups are there because these websites are invading your privacy. It really is that simple. Or, to be fair to all parties, they are there because continuous abuse by the industry forced governmental action. Don’t invade user’s privacy and you don’t need cookie banners. Can’t get simpler than that. https://commission.europa.eu/resources-partners/europa-web-g...

I just got a banner from that EU website. Clearly they think it necessary, and they're not a business.

That is explained right at the top of the page:

> Use of the cookie consent kit is mandatory on each page of the DGs and executive agencies-owned websites, regardless of the cookies used.

Let’s please engage in good-faith conversation. If you don’t read a prominent explanatory banner with a blocky information icon at the top of an explanatory page, I don’t know what to tell you.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#168

Post by latexr »

zmnd wrote: post #166
gruturo wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also blame your doctor for correctly diagnosing your illness?

If a doctor diagnosed me with the same result every time I go to another room, yes I would.

It’s not the same illness, every website has different tracking. The analogy wasn’t perfect, but they seldom are.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#169

Post by latexr »

ruthmarx wrote: post #160
GJim wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if you are trolling or so misinformed it is funny. The UK and EU do limit those activities. They remain entirely legal providing you get explicit opt-in consent .

> I don’t know if you are trolling or so misinformed Neither, you just somehow misinterpreted my comment. > The UK and EU do limit those activities. They remain entirely legal providing you get explicit opt-in consent. The point is that they do not limit them sufficiently, clearly. People who complain about the popups want to blame the businesses, but the business are doing in compliance with the law. That's the poin…

> The point is that they do not limit them sufficiently, clearly.

I agree. The law should’ve been stronger. But we work now with the hand we have.

> People who complain about the popups want to blame the businesses

Not in my experience. There’s a split between people blaming the business and blaming the EU.

> but the business are doing in compliance with the law.

Most aren’t. The GDPR says explicitly that withdrawing consent must be at least as easy as giving it. Yet most popular websites make it incredibly simple to accept but obtuse to refuse.

However, you may have noticed that’s starting to get better. More and more websites have a clear way to reject now. Meta (Facebook / Instagram) in particular are now way clearer than at the start. We have to thank organisations such as noyb¹ for that. They have been tireless in that fight and won a number of high-profile cases.

¹ https://noyb.eu/

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#170

Post by gruturo »

zmnd wrote: post #166
gruturo wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you also blame your doctor for correctly diagnosing your illness?

If a doctor diagnosed me with the same result every time I go to another room, yes I would.

So for some reason you're visiting 20 doctors and they all tell you "I will resell all your personal information to as many buyers as I can find, including sketchy ones, and to insurance companies which may raise your premiums depending on what you discuss with me" (I know it's illegal, it's an example), and you're blaming the law forcing them to confess this and giving you a chance to opt out?
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