Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

olivergrimsley.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 211 posts

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#151

Post by wkat4242 »

Ferret7446 wrote: post #122
f1refly wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Browsers would come with the no tracking signal enabled by default (why wouldn't they?) so that tracking would become opt-in. > - Nobody chooses to be tracked. > - The whole industry built on tracking users collapses, namely advertisement > - Web sites who based their business model on advertisement go under This seems like the perfect outcome to me, but I doubt we'll be this lucky

Maybe I'm soft, but I always ad block and yet I don't think millions of people losing their jobs, and the resultant economic depression causing millions of other people to go hungry/homeless is a perfect outcome.

Well those people could go do something constructive for humanity :) You're acting as if there won't be anything to replace it.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#152

Post by krick »

troupo wrote: post #142
ruthmarx wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worse, people (including on HN) actively blaming the EU for it. The EU is exactly to blame for it. The activity isn't illegal, and the EU didn't make it illegal. What the *EU did* was make it so that companies engaging in that legal activity now had to disclose it in some way, and thee cookie popups are the best way to do that. It's ridiculous to try and say the EU isn't to blame when they introduced and approved t…

EU: Don't track users, don't obtain vast amounts of data on users, don't sell that data to third parties. If you you do, ask users for informed consent. Industry: we hear you. Here's "informed consent" form riddled with dark patterns because we believe that all data is ours by God's decree, and our 15 000 "partners" agree with us ... HN: The EU is to blame for this

This is correct. However, I always thought that legislation is pretty stupid. It isn't exactly comparable to alcohol/tobacco warnings. Actually, I always thought they are stupid too, but at least they can count as an "informed nonsent", since it's pretty clear, what's the harm they are taking about.

Cookies, on the other hand... Even for me, who was perfectly aware of the problem long before this legislation, and who was privacy-oriented to begin with, it isn't clear, what's the consent I'm giving. First off, I know everybody uses cookies, and almost everybody uses some trackers. Second, even me, somewhat informed user, I don't really understand, what is that information they are sharing with third parties, and why should I care. I feel kinda stupid when I bother to press "reject all". Like, does it even matter, what I choose? Wouldn't they do it anyway, whatever they do? Then, I use ublock and I hope it helps. If it doesn't, well, tough luck, but what do I do? I do want to read that one paragraph from the medium/NYT article I found on Google, despite how much I hate them. I won't stop using the internet because of... whatever this is.

I can only imagine, what it's like for average user, who is, let's be honest, pretty clueless. I guess for them it is indeed the EU who is too blame here.

GDPR is more useful, but still I'm not sure if it really helps. Like, I remember someone complaining that before GDPR you could bulk-download gpx files from Strava, and now you can only request .fit files, that are supposed to containt more data, but really aren't that useful for most. Well, it's not GDPR you should blame, it's Strava and all their partners/competitors (especially Garmin, god I hate them so much). They are successfully making life harder for you, because they don't want it to be easy to get your own data back. And who is to stop them? Maybe it's a matter of time, I don't know, but it doesn't seem GDPR is effectively enforcing what it is supposed to.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#153

Post by wkat4242 »

redprince wrote: post #101
wkat4242 wrote: post #72

> Enact a law that requires a service to respect the do not track signal from a browser (currently entirely voluntary), and not store any tracking cookies, clear gifs or other trackers – and require that a site not “discriminate” against users who elect no tracking – basically – provide all functions to users whether they consent or do not consent. This is indeed the obvious solution. I don't understand why the EU di…

That there is no such mechanism can be explained pretty well with this extreme scenario: - Browsers would come with the no tracking signal enabled by default (why wouldn't they?) so that tracking would become opt-in. - Nobody chooses to be tracked. - The whole industry built on tracking users collapses, namely advertisement - Web sites who based their business model on advertisement go under Because of this I bet tha…

Well yes but the websites will find suppliers of untracked (context sensitive e.g. car ads on a website about cars) ads, which will become more valuable since they no longer have to compete with tracked ads.

Companies like Google and Meta would lose their huge moat because they're the only ones with the kind of pervasive tracking network that make tracked ads viable. They no longer have a big advantage over smaller ad players. And them losing their huge market position isn't a bad thing IMO.

I don't think ads would disappear, they would just become untracked. Neither would websites. They will find a way.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#154

Post by gruturo »

joenot443 wrote: post #146
latexr wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you actually read what these pop-ups says, then you understand why they are there, and why the problem with the laws isn't that it's annoying, but that it is not much more restrictive. Worse, people (including on HN) actively blaming the EU for it. It’s like having a law mandating people are informed when there’s poison in their drink, then seeing people complain about the warning labels everywhere. The label…

Legislation by the EU is why the popups are there. It really is that simple.

Do you also blame your doctor for correctly diagnosing your illness?

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#155

Post by wkat4242 »

tgv wrote: post #83
wkat4242 wrote: post #72

> Enact a law that requires a service to respect the do not track signal from a browser (currently entirely voluntary), and not store any tracking cookies, clear gifs or other trackers – and require that a site not “discriminate” against users who elect no tracking – basically – provide all functions to users whether they consent or do not consent. This is indeed the obvious solution. I don't understand why the EU di…

> I don't understand why the EU didn't mandate the do not track flag to be obeyed. 1. Because the implementation is simply left open? 2. Because it's nearly impossible to verify?

The implementation in technical terms is left open yes, but they could have added a clause that settings like this (and not necessarily specifically this alone) must be respected if set. And in that case no other questions may be asked because the preference is already given. In that case the EU would have done themselves a huge favour because now they get blamed by everyone for the cookiewalls. Even though this was never the intention of the law.

What do you mean verify? If it's set then it's set. It gets automatically injected with every web request. It's not possible to make sure the user manually set the flag or if it was default, no. But in the EU the law says that tracking must be opt-in so this is perfectly good behaviour in line with the law.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#156

Post by ruthmarx »

latexr wrote: post #147
ruthmarx wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worse, people (including on HN) actively blaming the EU for it. The EU is exactly to blame for it. The activity isn't illegal, and the EU didn't make it illegal. What the *EU did* was make it so that companies engaging in that legal activity now had to disclose it in some way, and thee cookie popups are the best way to do that. It's ridiculous to try and say the EU isn't to blame when they introduced and approved t…

> and thee cookie popups are the best way to do that. No, the best way to do it is not invade people’s privacy. You can have ads without targeting (we did it forever before the internet) and you do not need cookie warnings if your cookies aren’t invasive. https://commission.europa.eu/resources-partners/europa-web-g... > The activity isn't illegal, and the EU didn't make it illegal. Indeed that is a shame. If only.

> No, the best way to do it is not invade people’s privacy. You can have ads without targeting

You are deliberately missing the point and shifting the goalposts.

You're talking about asking a business voluntarily not engage in lucrative legal business activities. Why would they do that? There are so many more important things business should voluntarily abstain from by that reasoning.

No, as long as the behavior remains legal, a business has every right to engage in such activity.

The only reason the cookie popups are a thing is because the **EU** mandated some sort of notification which basically mapped to these popups.

So it's the EU to lame. No question about it. A business engaging in legal activity is not to blame, since it's the regulations around that activity and not the businesses practicing the activity that are the topic of discussion here.

Stop shifting the buck. It's so incredibly dishonest.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#157

Post by ruthmarx »

troupo wrote: post #142
ruthmarx wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worse, people (including on HN) actively blaming the EU for it. The EU is exactly to blame for it. The activity isn't illegal, and the EU didn't make it illegal. What the *EU did* was make it so that companies engaging in that legal activity now had to disclose it in some way, and thee cookie popups are the best way to do that. It's ridiculous to try and say the EU isn't to blame when they introduced and approved t…

EU: Don't track users, don't obtain vast amounts of data on users, don't sell that data to third parties. If you you do, ask users for informed consent. Industry: we hear you. Here's "informed consent" form riddled with dark patterns because we believe that all data is ours by God's decree, and our 15 000 "partners" agree with us ... HN: The EU is to blame for this

What would the 'light' pattern be in this case, where the business wants to comply with regulation and maximize profit?

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#158

Post by wkat4242 »

troupo wrote: post #143
wkat4242 wrote: post #72

> Enact a law that requires a service to respect the do not track signal from a browser (currently entirely voluntary), and not store any tracking cookies, clear gifs or other trackers – and require that a site not “discriminate” against users who elect no tracking – basically – provide all functions to users whether they consent or do not consent. This is indeed the obvious solution. I don't understand why the EU di…

> I don't understand why the EU didn't mandate the do not track flag to be obeyed. GDPR is a general regulation. It doesn't concern itself with browsers, or cookies. It's on industry to come up with a solution for specific technologies. Oh, and for browsers they did. It's called the "Do Not Track" header, and the industry immediately sed it to fingerprint and track users. > By not doing this the EU keeps getting flak…

> Oh, and for browsers they did. It's called the "Do Not Track" header, and the industry immediately sed it to fingerprint and track users.

They do this anyway. They should have mandated this be honoured (or any other type of tech). If that were the case the browsers would have brought it back in short order.

> The EU never mandated the cookie walls. It's the industry's calculated malicious compliance.

Exactly. And this is their fault for not regulating this properly.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#159

Post by wkat4242 »

bortsampson wrote: post #86
wkat4242 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but there's the rub. Asking Google to take analytics away just isn't going to happen. It makes them billions. And marketeers want this data because sales data only tells them where they succeeded. Not where they failed to sell, which is more interesting to them because that's where the growth is found. It'll be really hard to wean them off this.

The EU can simply tell them they can no longer operate Analytics. Too bad if it's hard on Google. They are a preditory company that violates privacy rights. There is clearly competition in the markets they serve. Any threat of complete exit is empty. Those competitors are more than willing to gain any market they exit. These companies need to be put in check by the government or a regulatory body. Marketing and Adver…

> The EU can simply tell them they can no longer operate Analytics. Too bad if it's hard on Google.

No they can't. The US doesn't even let them decide whether to supply chip machines to China. Or for Schiphol Airport to reduce slots for noise abatement. the US immediately trumped up diplomacy and raised threats to stop those things.

Banning google analytics is just unthinkable in the current relationship between EU and US. I agree they are a predatory company but this is unfortunately how things are right now in the balance of power.

Re: Please stop putting cookie pop-ups on your website (2022)

#160

Post by ruthmarx »

GJim wrote: post #145
ruthmarx wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe stop doing stupid shit that will legally require you to inform users that you're about to sell/share everything you know about them to 3rd parties? Why? It's legal and extremely lucrative. If it's really an issue, maybe the EU could actually limit these activities instead of just forcing sites to put a notification that they are attempting to engage in those activities?

I don’t know if you are trolling or so misinformed it is funny. The UK and EU do limit those activities. They remain entirely legal providing you get explicit opt-in consent .

> I don’t know if you are trolling or so misinformed

Neither, you just somehow misinterpreted my comment.

> The UK and EU do limit those activities. They remain entirely legal providing you get explicit opt-in consent.

The point is that they do not limit them sufficiently, clearly. People who complain about the popups want to blame the businesses, but the business are doing in compliance with the law.

That's the point. So blaming the business for the popups doesn't make sense, because the popups are a result of EU regulation, not the businesses doing anything wrong. Because as you say, the EU limits those activities and allows those businesses to do as they do.

Post reply on HN