Live data from Hacker News

TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

toucharcade.com

71–80 of 107 posts

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#71
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a retro game no longer gives money to the developers. It doesn’t support the development of further games, it mostly just puts money in the pockets of collectors and scalpers.

> Buying a tomato in a grocery store no longer gives money to the farmer, because he's already been paid for it. Same logic, same fallacy.

It's not, though. I'm not buying a 30 year old tomato, like I would a 30 year old game. I'm going to keep buying a tomato every week to make my BLT, enabling the grocery store to continually give money to the farmer for more tomatoes. I'm not going to be continually rebuy the same old game on a regular basis. Me buying tomatoes encourages the farmer to grow tomatoes next year, the same is not true for retro games.

One of these is a continual economic...pipeline of the tomatoes being exchanged for money, and being consumed. The other is speculation and collection. Please don't get hung up on the terminology, I'm not an economist.

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#72
post #19
post #5

This is a highly visible manifestation of something that has been going on for years. I have been around mobile games for 20 years (going back to J2ME) and have never seen interest in the field so low. Essentially the noise is that people are locked into habits in the app stores. It takes huge amounts of money to get people to try something new, and this invariably leads to amazing conservatism on the part of publish…

The mobile gaming market is overwhelmed with cheap trash. It's what you see when you open a mobile game store. (I just opened the iOS App Store games section and, apart from Minecraft and Roblox -- which I'm not interested in -- everything on the main screen pretty much looks terrible.) It's a marked contrast to the major consoles and other game store platforms which, for whatever reason, do a much better job of not…

> which, for whatever reason, do a much better job of not just promoting stuff that will be profitable

it's simply the law of large numbers. The early Switch was a goldmine for indies. If you could get a game on in the first 12-18 months, you were nearly guaranteed decent sales. That mine ended about 2 years in, though. Still a big market, but you will probably be buried more often.

Now Go to Steam. Decent storefront based on recommendations, but due to user tagging and the sheer volume of releases you're bound to get some random $2 hentai game everynow and then, no matter how fine tuned your filters on. This is partially because again, steam leaves it to the community to tag, but those weid recommendations are a peek into the surface of how much slop there truly is on Steam. And we don't even talk about how 99% of indies fare on Steam.

Google/Apple's stores are just Steam x 1000. There's millions of apps released per year, nearly impossible to curate manually. And due to the f2p nature, it'd take a lot longer to build a proper recommendation engine. because games optimized towards playtime, not getting $5 out of you ASAP.

But on top of all that: mobile games aren't on that power curve where they peak sales for the firs month then trickle along. Roblox was a highest earner for years and probably makes more revenue over time, not less. So the top selling board doesn't change. And google/apple have negative incentive to change that, because they will keep selling and they will get their cut. Who cares about new titles when the old ones are making hundreds of millions years later?

>And so I think the market generally treats mobile games like garbage. Which they by-and-large seem to be.

well, money talks, and Whales can disproportionately talk louder than some complaints online about mobile games. That's all that matters to the company. The best compromise would seem to be to support those games offering console experiences (more and more these days also on console/PC as well) but using a f2p monetization system if that's desirable. it won't change the candy crushes and robloxes, but it does show you can still grab console-oriented players on mobile.

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#73
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And they complained about the total switch over to micro-transactions. Those complaints were ignored. There is a good reason for this. “Premium” mobile games never reliably made that much money, even during the early iOS boom. If you were a publisher it took having quite a few hits to compensate, and Android was more trouble than it was worth for a long time. A successful MTX game made several orders of magnitude m…

> Such games are “cheap trash” in the same sense as a vegas casino. Similarly the actual operating of them at scale becomes very sophisticated. And finally, there's an initiative to outlaw many of the tactics that make it work so well! https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer...

funnily enough, these factors affects mobile games the least:

- Gamers cannot see the real cost of digital items, leading to overspending.

mobile games do have some confusing tactics like using odd currency amounts (say, 180 in game currency instead of 200 to pull a character), but changing that won't really kill any game.

- Companies’ claims that gamers prefer in-game premium currencies are wrong.

for premium games with MTX this makes sense. For a f2p mobile game there is no preference.

- Consumers are often denied their rights when using premium in-game currencies.

mobile games tends to be pretty good at dealing with this. Mobile had huge charge-back rates, be it through Google/Apple or CC companies (and probably still do), so it's financially wiser to just help out complaining customers who aren't objectively in the wrong. the digital currency is basically worthless anyway.

- Children are vulnerable to these manipulative tactics.

A classic argument. I don't know how this one will result, but I have seen more and more games launch as 16/17+ rather than 12+ (I dont know if these stores even allow 18+. But I'm sure they would if it means they keep their lootboxes). A few even retroactively increase their age rating. But those are for reasons beyond the scope of children fears.

It's a good step to make console games choose between f2p or premium, but I don't think this (in its current iteration) will clamp down much on the mobile market.

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, when I was in Asia I saw people playing mobile games all over the place. Mobile is the biggest gaming platform by a large margin.

Yes, but it's all anime gacha games like Genshin, Honkai, Arknights etc.

Is that a bad thing when you see what the western mobile scene looks like?

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#75
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such games are “cheap trash” in the same sense as a vegas casino. Similarly the actual operating of them at scale becomes very sophisticated. And finally, there's an initiative to outlaw many of the tactics that make it work so well! https://www.beuc.eu/reports/game-over-consumers-fight-fairer...

funnily enough, these factors affects mobile games the least: - Gamers cannot see the real cost of digital items, leading to overspending. mobile games do have some confusing tactics like using odd currency amounts (say, 180 in game currency instead of 200 to pull a character), but changing that won't really kill any game. - Companies’ claims that gamers prefer in-game premium currencies are wrong. for premium games…

> It's a good step to make console games choose between f2p or premium, but I don't think this (in its current iteration) will clamp down much on the mobile market.

The fact that Roblox and Clash of Clans are cited as examples suggests this will absolutely impact Apple, if there is validity to the claims, because they are and have been the biggest beneficiary of such tactics for more than a decade.

A decade ago they were forced to create parental controls after it was found kids were spending money like crazy in games designed to let kids spend unlimited amounts of money, and today 10x more is spent in those kids games...

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve played a fair bit of Stardew Valley, and that complexity can be fun, but sometimes I prefer to return to Friends of Mineral Town for the simplicity, and can do so on mobile (iOS lacks a mobile port of SD to my knowledge).

I thought I was the only one. I played so much FOMT on GBA that when I found Stardew Valley I was ecstatic because the dev added a bunch of QOL features I always wanted to add to FOMT. The longer I played the less I enjoyed it and it’s hard to put my finger on. Music is great, gameplay is great, relationships are alright. Something always feels off though. I blame the hard coded cooking aspect of the game tbh. And yo…

My biggest gripes are definitely within the mines and relationships, but there’s also a general feeling of, I guess best described as urgency, I feel in SD but not in FOMT.

The mines are an easy target to pick on, and I understand why it is like this. The game is first and foremost an indie farming sim, and as someone who really enjoys action JRPGs (having grown up on Summon Night: Swordcraft Story) I was thoroughly dissatisfied with the mines. It’s essentially pre-1.12 Minecraft combat (aka spam clicking) against the same 5 enemies, breaking rocks to either get to the nth floor or collect enough of whatever resource to get out and do something more productive. I understand that making it more in-depth would pull the lone dev’s resources from other things and may not even be an interest for them, let alone the mostly casual players, but still a critique I will field.

Probably bigger to me is the relationships. I adore most of the characters, and especially Penny and Sam. It makes romance delightfully difficult when your preferred partner gets with your favorite guy, but that brings me to the problem with the base game. I can’t have a best friend. I want to get full hearts on people without it being strictly romantic, and I am thankful there are so many mods that do touch on this.

Finally, as for urgency, it’s really hard to describe and I’m not sure if it’s the right term. I just feel pressured in SD in ways I don’t in FOMT. Pressured to focus on the game, to plan my time around the game rather than picking it up, playing for the time allotted during a break, and then quicksaving for later. I feel pressured to be profitable, to be efficient, and to be social on top of that. It’s been a good few months since I’ve played FOMT, I admit, while SD was only a few weeks ago, so it may be revealing to play it again and see if I can deduce where these feelings originate.

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#77
post #51

Really too bad, but I’m not surprised. I know losing affiliate money many years ago hurt bad. But the truth is I don’t care much anymore. I loved TA because they helped me find fun games. And while I’ve found a few from them in the last few years like Peglin most of their coverage is unsurprisingly what most of the industry makes: pay to win with smurfberries advertising laden crap. I strongly believe the iOS gaming…

in some ways, this is on consumer choice as well. I'm sure people like you were more console oriented, but the MTX era meant they could appeal to a casual audience who would slowly drop money here and there, for games that are simpler to iterate on compared to something like Infinity Blade or Chaos Rings. Or watch ads in-between their 30-60 second level-based games. Or in the opposite way, the ruthless Korean MMO mod…

I understand having other business models. I personally hate ads, but I’m also happy to buy a game and then pay to remove the ads. And I’m willing to pay a lot more than the $1 that most people seem to think is overpriced.

I also understand having some in app purchases.

My gripe is a few games took a really exploitive route with in app purchases. Having extremely aggressive timers and tons of currencies. And they CLEANED UP. From what I’ve heard it sounds like it’s mostly people who pay nothing, children being tricked into paying, and a small number of people who spend an insane amount of money. The whales.

But whatever the mix it made money so every game publisher started racing to turn out identical skinner boxes.

This had two effects. First, that’s what the publishers were interested in so it’s probably a lot harder to get anything else through. Second, because those games are “free“ it changed pricing expectations that games and other apps should be “free“.

So if you wanted to make a good game and sell it at even a really low price, people screamed at you. How DARE you charge $1.99.

By driving down the expected price we ended up at a point where the only things that can make any money at all or either crammed with ads that get shown to you constantly or designed to milk as much money out of people as possible.

Games only have to be good enough to keep people looking at the ads or paying for another set of Smurfberries.

Worst of all even games that were already made and were absolute classics have been ruined. Because they either get updates to add those features (Flight Control) or sequels to change the game to be more like one of those that makes a lot of money (Plants be Zombies 2, Trism 2).

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#78
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in some ways, this is on consumer choice as well. I'm sure people like you were more console oriented, but the MTX era meant they could appeal to a casual audience who would slowly drop money here and there, for games that are simpler to iterate on compared to something like Infinity Blade or Chaos Rings. Or watch ads in-between their 30-60 second level-based games. Or in the opposite way, the ruthless Korean MMO mod…

I understand having other business models. I personally hate ads, but I’m also happy to buy a game and then pay to remove the ads. And I’m willing to pay a lot more than the $1 that most people seem to think is overpriced. I also understand having some in app purchases. My gripe is a few games took a really exploitive route with in app purchases. Having extremely aggressive timers and tons of currencies. And they CLE…

Yeah, I think we are in full agreement. I usually prefer to try and offset downer news like this with some attempt at a solution. But I know those solutions won't come from anything currently in the scene; not from Apple/Google, not from whales, not from the devs. We basically need a storefront focused on premium games so we at least forge a new audience. A "Steam" of mobile. We can't drill through the diamonds but we can drill an alternative path, in theory.

I'm very slowly working on a PC game but I always fancied the idea of also doing a mobile port. It'd be a fun challenge and I know a phone can be more accessible for many. Due to the factors you highlighted I know that's a fool errand in the current state of mobile. Even if I made it a truly free game I wouldn't get many views (let alone downloads), especially compared to all the dopamine inducing hyoercausla games or high budget services. The native stores are just hyper black holes for people like me. So this "mobile Steam" would really help motivate people like me.

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#79
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

funnily enough, these factors affects mobile games the least: - Gamers cannot see the real cost of digital items, leading to overspending. mobile games do have some confusing tactics like using odd currency amounts (say, 180 in game currency instead of 200 to pull a character), but changing that won't really kill any game. - Companies’ claims that gamers prefer in-game premium currencies are wrong. for premium games…

> It's a good step to make console games choose between f2p or premium, but I don't think this (in its current iteration) will clamp down much on the mobile market. The fact that Roblox and Clash of Clans are cited as examples suggests this will absolutely impact Apple, if there is validity to the claims, because they are and have been the biggest beneficiary of such tactics for more than a decade. A decade ago they…

Roblox is definitely a unique case due to its marketing, yes. And it's been under fire for a while now. I do wonder how much impact that could have if it was forced to lose much of the audience assossiated with it.

For stuff like Clash of Clans, I'm less sure. The impact wouldn't be zero, but I'm expecting it more on the scale of making 100m a month to 90m a month. You'll feel it but it won't really make devs change course.

Re: TouchArcade Is Shutting Down

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any good backend/IAP-integrated ways to do affiliate referrals now ? I guess the only way is to use in app code entry to unlock access to a promo code or a special IAP

That's the only way I know of. You tell some code for a game, and if you enter it you get some small rewards. That's how some streamers get a bit of pay. Of course, the issue is that communities (and AI slop) will just coalesce the codes into one place, often without credit. I'm guessing this still helps affiliates, but it loses the advantage of more traffic.

But are there any platforms that help with managing the payouts and tracking these events? That's the daunting part that I don't want to do manual accounting on every month...
Post reply on HN