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How America's universities became debt factories

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#531

Post by lapcat »

bumby wrote: post #529
lapcat wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> otherwise it comes across as someone arguing for the sake of arguing It's funny how you don't think this applies to you, especially since you came in almost a day after the HN discussion started and long after everyone else stopped replying. In this way, you prolonged an argument that had already come to an end. > That same funding dynamic plays out with lower ranked schools because they tend to get much less resea…

> Well, the humanities tend not to get a lot of research dollars, period. And it’s no coincidence that the humanities have the highest rate of self-funded PhDs. > my point is that they’re not as closely related as you seem to believe You may need to explain why govt research grants and endowments tend to follow the higher ranked institutions. And if you look at some of the ranking structure, they are explicitly tied…

> You may need to explain why govt research grants and endowments tend to follow the higher ranked institutions.

Institutions. Not departments. Within the same institution, some departments may be very well funded, and some departments may be poorly funded. This is basic stuff that you should already know, and if you don't, then you certainly shouldn't be lecturing me.

My patience is worn out here. This back and forth is not interesting. I don't wish to continue with you any longer.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#532

Post by seahawks78 »

next_xibalba wrote: post #404
seizethecheese wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I do not agree with applying this retroactively. You shouldn’t change the rules in the middle of the game. 2) it would be unfair to make universities participate in the downside but not the upside. Perhaps the federal government should also turn the interest earned over to universities. This could actually go some way towards lessening resistance.

1) The game has been rigged since the beginning and the unis have been the biggest beneficiaries and the most malignant actors. You don't think they knew damn well what they were doing by charging $100k+ in tuition for an English degree to an 18 year with no hope of paying back the loans used to pay the tuition? 2) The universities have already gorged themselves at the greed-pig trough. How is it you think they can a…

Cant upvote this comment enough. This comment should be at the top of this thread!

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#533

Post by bumby »

lapcat wrote: post #531
bumby wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, the humanities tend not to get a lot of research dollars, period. And it’s no coincidence that the humanities have the highest rate of self-funded PhDs. > my point is that they’re not as closely related as you seem to believe You may need to explain why govt research grants and endowments tend to follow the higher ranked institutions. And if you look at some of the ranking structure, they are explicitly tied…

> You may need to explain why govt research grants and endowments tend to follow the higher ranked institutions. Institutions. Not departments. Within the same institution, some departments may be very well funded, and some departments may be poorly funded. This is basic stuff that you should already know, and if you don't, then you certainly shouldn't be lecturing me. My patience is worn out here. This back and fort…

I see you only cherry picked a part of that statement. Surely you understand that research grants are awarded to professors and departments? As are many donations are earmarked for specific programs and departments. Those research dollars are what directly fund grad student positions. And the rankings are relatively stable, although there can be jockeying in some specific tiers. Schools like John’s Hopkins, UCLA and Michigan will be near the top of health care research dollars as well as top rankings in practically any year. Your posts read as someone who is trying to rationalize personal decisions rather than someone who knows how the system works.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#534

Post by dogcomplex »

skrebbel wrote: post #480
dogcomplex wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distinguishing between malice and ineptitude at the systemic level is nearly impossible. If the OP's type of comment makes you uncomfortable, you might be leaning too far into putting blame on ineptitude by default, instead of a healthy at least 50/50 mix of blaming greedy malice. OP just listed the 20/20 hindsight of this all. If that makes it sound like it was all a scheme, well - who knows - but it's just as unhel…

I see your point, but this is not really just about people / businesses being individually greedy malicious (where I agree fully with your argument, and you're not wrong that I may assume good intent a bit too often - I'm indeed that kind of positivo hippie). Here, there's a kind of "big picture malicious", Sith-Lord-level piece of action being sketched, and that's in my opinion a categorically different thing. No gr…

I mean, it might not be that - but it could still be a series of smaller decisions from people who could have known better deciding to choose greed and creating/reinforcing a marketplace where the competition likewise needs to choose greed to compete. It doesn't need to be orchestrated by a table of cloaked figures to still be an additive conspiracy where they all knew what they were doing yet did it anyway as incentives aligned. I'm not sure what in the OPs post makes it require some cartoonish villainy, when a decentralized herd of morally bankrupt people can serve just fine and be just as evil in the end!

I do get the reluctance there though to doubt collective conscious evil action. Which is fine - it's usually far more likely it was done in a "market incentives aligning" way, even when they're entirely conscious (still evil) moves. I think those dark board rooms do happen still, but they're subtle, or relegated to just approving preplanned media narrative directions and such. They do make long term concerted plans, and some of those plans can be downright dark - but they also just go with the flow a lot, or plain fuck up on executions with better intentions.

I think the takeaway should be that neither maliciousness nor incompetence is really required to make evil exist - it's an ever-present network effect potential of the [capitalist] system itself, which will trigger due to some mixture of the above regardless. You can't especially blame greedy people for capitalizing on it, nor incompetent people from dropping the ball with it. It's simply a complex system that's probably due for a better design - and/or it's something we need to try and live with (survive through). Though that could all just be my own personal bias as a systems engineer who considers those the start and end point of most discussions.

Glad my point made it across though, thanks for saying that!

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#536

Post by theendisney4 »

toast0 wrote: post #454
labcomputer wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s only because doctors collude to limit the number of available residency places. I programmers were smart, they would: 1. Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license. 2. Limit the number of licenses granted each year

> Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license. No way you're getting consensus on this one, but even if you could, it's too hard to stop. If you charge for compilers, and only provide them to licensed developers, hippies will make and distribute compilers for free.

The hippies wouldnt be licenced but if they could they cant provide a certified corporate party to be liable for damages.

Consensus isnt needed, just enough beurocracy to make development expensive.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#537

Post by j45 »

fny wrote: post #344
zozbot234 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.

In addition, you must complete a four year degree in whatever before going to medical school.

In Canada there are some universities which allow exceptional students to apply after the first 2 years.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#538

Post by ivansavz »

I believe a decade from now we'll see the "unbundling" of the three types of value universities provide: /1/ employability signal, /2/ knowledge, /3/ social. I don't know what will replace /1/ and /3/, but I look forward the future where /2/ can be made more widely accessible (without the debt).

Imagine a future where everyone knows 101-level concepts in chemistry, biology, physics, etc. and able to function in society informed by all this knowledge, rather than defer to "experts."

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#539

Post by Log_out_ »

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

5) Have a massive elite overptoduction that becomes an anti elite toppling your democracy .

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#540

Post by robertlagrant »

GreenWatermelon wrote: post #370
luckylion wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many will agree, but that's part of the reason why the US has a 50% higher GDP with 30% lower population. Focusing on well-beeing, fun and experience comes at a price.

GDP that's concentrated in the top few % of the population. The fact that despite 50% higher GPD and 30% less population there's still rampant homelessness is damning enough.

> The fact that despite 50% higher GPD and 30% less population there's still rampant homelessness is damning enough.

You can't solve all of that through GDP. There are social and drug and mental health issues that seem to not present to nearly the same extent.

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