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How America's universities became debt factories

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#521

Post by lapcat »

bumby wrote: post #520
lapcat wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was making a general point. Nobody here has any evidence that their so-called "general" points are any more than their own personal anecdotal experience. You're all trying to pretend that somehow you're experts and I'm just some clueless n00b, but that's ridiculous. At best, we're all on equal ground.

So your point is that well-renowned graduate programs are on an equal financial footing as those that are less well regarded? I think it’s fairly well established that better programs have better funding. This generally results in more funding for PhD prospects. It’s great that you want to share your anecdotal experience, but don’t pretend that it means it’s a incontrovertible generalizable truth. > Nobody here has a…

> So your point is that well-renowned graduate programs are on an equal financial footing as those that are less well regarded?

No. I don't know where in the world you got that from what I said.

> I think it’s fairly well established that better programs have better funding.

It's not that simple. Funding can vary widely by university and department. You want to make it uniform, but it's not.

The reputation of a program is determined by a number of factors, and it can change over time. A lot depends on the particular professors who happen to be there at a certain point. And sometimes giant public universities are able to compete with smaller elite private universities by sheer size, i.e., the size of the faculty.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#523

Post by alephnerd »

rr808 wrote: post #489
alephnerd wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best jobs themselves have a regional bias. That's why Baruch has Ivy level representation in IB and High Finance, and SJSU plus CalPoly SLO has Stanford level representation in the tech industry at large. Just looking at the Linkedins of the most successful EMs, PMs, and SEs in my network, most attended a normal state flagship and worked at an "OK" company like Oracle or Splunk. This whole "FAANG"-or-bust or "Ivy…

Yep all true. I didn't have a elite degree but also started in a bad region in a tech slowdown so that does explain a lot.

Well from the sounds of it you've gotten on track! And that's something us Techies take for granted.

If you don't get on the career train for law or finance on time, you're de facto unemployable.

And this is why I love being in tech - we can grind and still find a strong path to upward mobility.

Hard skills like engineering, accounting, actuary, and medicine/dentistry/nursing are always employable. Sure you may earn less in some downturns, but at least we can get jobs.

And, unlike high finance, so long as you keep kinda up to date on technology and architecture, you can negotiate your way into IB level salaries (IB, VC, and High Finance pays fairly bad for the hours spent working, and I myself imagine returning to being a SWE).

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#524

Post by bumby »

lapcat wrote: post #521
bumby wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your point is that well-renowned graduate programs are on an equal financial footing as those that are less well regarded? I think it’s fairly well established that better programs have better funding. This generally results in more funding for PhD prospects. It’s great that you want to share your anecdotal experience, but don’t pretend that it means it’s a incontrovertible generalizable truth. > Nobody here has a…

> So your point is that well-renowned graduate programs are on an equal financial footing as those that are less well regarded? No. I don't know where in the world you got that from what I said. > I think it’s fairly well established that better programs have better funding. It's not that simple. Funding can vary widely by university and department. You want to make it uniform, but it's not. The reputation of a progr…

>No. I don't know where in the world you got that from what I said.

I’m trying to be generous by helping to clarify what you mean otherwise it comes across as someone arguing for the sake of arguing.

>You want to make it uniform

Not at all, and that was never said or implied. My point is the opposite; that programs differ in funding. I just take it a step further to make the point that lower funding leads to less funded PhD opportunities. Take early during COVID; funding temporarily dropped when many foreign students could no longer attend meaning it was easier for a self funded student get into a top program (I know because that’s what I did.) That same funding dynamic plays out with lower ranked schools because they tend to get much less research dollars.

>the reputation of a program is determined by a number of factors

Again, I don’t think anyone is disputing this. The point is about how reputation is related to funding and funding is related to PhD opportunities.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#525

Post by jklinger410 »

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

Someone should be in jail for this. And the boomers and older who enabled it should feel embarrassed about feeding their children into this debt machine.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#526

Post by lapcat »

bumby wrote: post #524
lapcat wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So your point is that well-renowned graduate programs are on an equal financial footing as those that are less well regarded? No. I don't know where in the world you got that from what I said. > I think it’s fairly well established that better programs have better funding. It's not that simple. Funding can vary widely by university and department. You want to make it uniform, but it's not. The reputation of a progr…

> No. I don't know where in the world you got that from what I said. I’m trying to be generous by helping to clarify what you mean otherwise it comes across as someone arguing for the sake of arguing. > You want to make it uniform Not at all, and that was never said or implied. My point is the opposite; that programs differ in funding. I just take it a step further to make the point that lower funding leads to less f…

> otherwise it comes across as someone arguing for the sake of arguing

It's funny how you don't think this applies to you, especially since you came in almost a day after the HN discussion started and long after everyone else stopped replying. In this way, you prolonged an argument that had already come to an end.

> That same funding dynamic plays out with lower ranked schools because they tend to get much less research dollars.

Well, the humanities tend not to get a lot of research dollars, period.

> The point is about how reputation is related to funding

And my point is that they're not as closely related as you seem to believe.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#527

Post by paulcole »

grecy wrote: post #522
linotype wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now do wages and taxes.

and healthcare and safety

US is outrageously safe. People are just terrible at assessing actual risk vs. perceived risk. What specifically do you think is unsafe about the US?

Healthcare, yah that kinda sucks. We’ve got a really high ceiling and a really low floor. Other countries have a lower ceiling and a much higher floor. A significant problem in the US is that people don’t know how to navigate the health care system. That raises the floor quite a bit for the average person.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#528

Post by _heimdall »

> The solutions are surprisingly straightforward – make loans dischargeable, tie lending to degree value, hold institutions accountable

This really over complicates it in my opinion.

Student loans should be treated like any other debt. Yes, it should be able to be discharged as part of bankruptcy. From there we just need the government getting out of the way, save for a (hopefully) rare case of predatory lending or collusion.

Lenders will decide what value a degree is worth because lenders themselves should own the loans rather than governments. Banks and financial institutions have very skilled actuaries who would make pretty easy work of calculating the acceptable cost for a given degree from a given school, factoring in the lender's acceptable level of defaults.

Institutions can be very directly accountable when students can't get loans to go there. If a school charges too much, or the education they provide doesn't lead to careers that can pay back the loans, the schools lose.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#529

Post by bumby »

lapcat wrote: post #526
bumby wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. I don't know where in the world you got that from what I said. I’m trying to be generous by helping to clarify what you mean otherwise it comes across as someone arguing for the sake of arguing. > You want to make it uniform Not at all, and that was never said or implied. My point is the opposite; that programs differ in funding. I just take it a step further to make the point that lower funding leads to less f…

> otherwise it comes across as someone arguing for the sake of arguing It's funny how you don't think this applies to you, especially since you came in almost a day after the HN discussion started and long after everyone else stopped replying. In this way, you prolonged an argument that had already come to an end. > That same funding dynamic plays out with lower ranked schools because they tend to get much less resea…

>Well, the humanities tend not to get a lot of research dollars, period.

And it’s no coincidence that the humanities have the highest rate of self-funded PhDs.

>my point is that they’re not as closely related as you seem to believe

You may need to explain why govt research grants and endowments tend to follow the higher ranked institutions. And if you look at some of the ranking structure, they are explicitly tied to financial aid which is tied to endowments. I’m not saying it’s perfect or ideal, but ranking, money, and graduate positions are all intertwined.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#530

Post by dh2022 »

morpheuskafka wrote: post #472

I think Americans need to start very seriously considering working in another country after college. Student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, but it is extremely unlikely they will be legally enforced overseas. For that matter, some serious thought should be given to going to college overseas. I don't care that "American universities are always more prestigious," there are some countries that are handing out…

A friend of mine did exactly that. Entered U of Waterloo on math scholarship. Lost the scholarship in the first year because of bad grades. Second year transferred from Honirs Math t9 General Math. Third year transferred from Math to film studies. Fourth year transferred from film studies to Independent studies. Fifth year a lot of drinking and soccer - Independent studies did not require any classes just some sort of progress towards some type of essay. I think in sixth year Ontario government cut his student loans. He was on the hook for something like 50,000 CAD. Left to teach English in Seoul. Been there since 2000
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