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Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

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Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#171

Post by ericingram »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #157
ericingram wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is fuzzy logic, to say the market is not working over time because some people you are close to complain about craigslist. You are ignoring a huge number of people and the vast majority of the market's information (even analysts can't pin all the dynamic in a market). An idea can't "beat" Craigslist. It's the whole of a product and team mixed up with constantly shifting market dynamics and human preferen…

An idea can't "beat" Craigslist. It's the whole of a product and team mixed up with constantly shifting market dynamics and human preferences Here's an idea that can beat Craigslist: put up billboards all over town, offering $500 per ad to property managers and individual landlords in return for giving your site a 4-week exclusive on those ads. That's the only way people will stop putting ads on Craigslist first, whi…

I agree with that. Their network effects make new entry more difficult. That is a perfectly valid mechanism of a free market, as long as it's based on free exchange (no force).

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#172

Post by jasonlotito »

wandernotlost wrote: post #164
jasonlotito wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make the mistake of assuming that you gave them your data and got nothing in return. You did. What you're upset about is that you've already given them your data, and now you want more for it. You've upped your price after handing over the product, and them having delivered the product.

Please point to the part of my comment where I said I got nothing in return. I'm not sure what makes you think that customers can't demand things of those they do business with. There's always a potential new competitor, and I can always choose to take my business elsewhere. Also, who's saying I've upped my price? This all started because of narrowing of restrictions on APIs, not people suddenly demanding APIs where…

> Please point to the part of my comment where I said I got nothing in return.

It was your self-entitled attitude that reeked from your comment. If I was wrong with that, sorry.

In that case, your demanding they give you something for nothing.

> I'm not sure what makes you think that customers can't demand things of those they do business with.

Demanding things while offering nothing in return doesn't help. Also, "Please point to the part of my comment where I said customers can't demand things."

> Also, who's saying I've upped my price?

You have. You're asking for control over their API's.

Seriously, people like you think these companies have your data. They don't. You still have your data. You've shared it with them. It's theirs now. If you really cared about controlling your data, you'd have worried about this when you first signed up.

You're just acting the part of a self-entitled egotistical internet drama-queen "fighting the big guy oppressing the little guy", and frankly, that song-and-dance get's old quick.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#173

Post by ebrenes »

jacoblyles wrote: post #81
citricsquid wrote: post #2

I think the reason people here feel this way is because the general consensus among HN users is that the best product wins and that's all that matters. If a company has a monopoly on data and refuses to provide an API they're saying that they don't want to compete on the quality of their product (craigslist for example) they want to keep their position without the benefits to the users. Padmapper made craigslist apar…

Craigslist is the IE6 of classified ads. They are a monopoly that keeps the product shitty and prevents innovation. Padmapper is the Mozilla.

Is it really? I think all these derisive comments against CL are focusing on tangential details to the classified ad market.

If I place a classified ad it is to find a buyer for the services or product I'm trying to move. CL currently does that better than the competition. Yet the comments I see being handed around are about UI, design, automation and other items that might, but don't actually increase my chance of selling. To replace CL those sites need to provide the person posting the ad with a chance of finding a buyer that's equal to or greater than CL.

If those new start-ups can't provide that, but only have a shinier UI to offer, then they're competing on irrelevant details that aren't the main drivers behind people's decisions to post/view CL.

Others have mentioned marketing approaches and techniques to help improve those aspects. But most of what I've read is summarized as: "we'll provide a better app/ui/api" and that's a noble goal, but the reason for existing of these sits is to connect seller with buyer, what do those things bring to the table if a new app lacks a sufficiently large viewing audience? That's the problem that needs solving, not the app/ui/api one.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#174

Post by zobzu »

romanows wrote: post #15
zobzu wrote: post #5

But wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't we all better off as a whole if technology wasn't solely based on profit only? I think that's the real question, and what started the whole "API" "open XXX", not "OMG I WANT IT /CRY/CRY" that the image suggests. Remember that most devs nowadays participate in open source projects and start to have different ethics than they used to have (which was, money > everything, and justifies a…

Honest question, what devs are you thinking of that put profit above everything else? Newcomers during the dot-com bubble?

Well, I did point out that devs have better ethics than they used to have. It's the companies in general that drive them away from that (willingly, unwillingly, or even without knowing).

Or the dev-became-CEO, too, I guess. Not all of them of course.

I just wish it would keep on being "more open" for these reasons, and it would be sad to go back to an "all proprietary, closed, etc" world.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#175

Post by talmand »

einhverfr wrote: post #156
talmand wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they have the right to do so. It might be a bad idea for them to do it, but being their APIs they most certainly have the right to do that. Microsoft has no obligation to provide services to their competition free of charge just because someone out there feels it is the right thing to do. Of course, various court systems may disagree with me considering it is Microsoft. The line is clear, the source of the servi…

first of all, I am not sure they do have that right. Certainly if they tried, it would open up questions of the scope of user rights (do I, as a user have the right to run add-on software on a Microsoft platform independent of Microsoft's wishes), the scope of copyright (does 17 USC 102(b) provide a safe harbor for interoperability and prevent a software vendor from using copyrights to deny areas for competition), an…

I apologize, I should have been more clear. I agree with you about Microsoft and limiting things for third-parties in Windows. They've gone too far to be able to do that, Apple might be able to do it but they're quickly reaching that point with OSX. I was speaking more of APIs that Microsoft might create for various things web-related, as it relates to the story about Craigslist.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#176

Post by jasonlotito »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #165
jasonlotito wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sigh This is silly, and you probably think you are being smart. That's not what's being argued. Read the parent comment, and there is an expectation that it's your data and you have the right to decide what to do with it, and that you essentially should be able to dictate to other companies how they have to share it. I call bullshit. > What about the posts I put on Craigslist in the future? What about them? T&C. It's…

Condescension doesn't make your point any more valid that it would be otherwise. You'll actually find people take you more seriously without it. What I'm reacting to is this idea that things are the way they are and they can't change. That the companies have the sole power to set the terms for what they do with data provided to them by their users. And of course they don't. It's an exchange, and if the users, as a gr…

> What I'm reacting to is this idea that things are the way they are and they can't change.

No, you're demanding change. Demand has a meaning to it. You are demanding they do something. You aren't asking. You aren't negotiating. Your are demanding!

> I believe it is entirely reasonable to demand that they make those data accessible to other services I'd like to use.

Here is some good advice: Condescension doesn't make your point any more valid that it would be otherwise. You'll actually find people take you more seriously without it. =)

> That the companies have the sole power to set the terms for what they do with data provided to them by their users. And of course they don't.

You are wrong. First, your framing this wrong. It's their data. You've shared that data with them, they've collected it, stored it, processed it, and done what they will with it. Outside of a breach of the terms you agreed to, I don't see any reason they are beholden to you or anyone else.

> It's simple business to request the terms of an exchange be changed.

But that's not how you are framing it. You aren't requesting anything. You are demanding. And, more to the point, you are demanding you have control over all aspects of that data, even, apparently, data you generated using their product.

So again, the problem is you see this as data that is yours. It's not. You've paid them already, with that data. It's like giving someone money and demanding they do what you say with it.

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