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Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

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Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#111

Post by ericingram »

crazygringo wrote: post #76
asanwal wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting legislation that "levels the playing field"? I'd much rather have this settled by entrepreneurs fighting on the basis of their ideas than some legislator without a clue. No company dominates forever esp in technology. Craigslist disrupted a huge classified industry without any legislator saying that papers had to "open" up their data. Markets work over time.

But the point is, entrepreneurs are currently fighting on the basis of their ideas, and failing , even though their ideas are better than Craigslist, because Craigslist is winning merely because of network lock-in, not because of innovation. Craigslist disrupted the classifieds industry because it had first-mover advantage in a new medium, the Internet. It now abuses that advantage in order to not innovate or even co…

I think this is fuzzy logic, to say the market is not working over time because some people you are close to complain about craigslist. You are ignoring a huge number of people and the vast majority of the market's information (even analysts can't pin all the dynamic in a market).

An idea can't "beat" Craigslist. It's the whole of a product and team mixed up with constantly shifting market dynamics and human preferences.

It's just way more complicated, and legislation shouldn't even come into the conversation here unless the company is provably violating another's civil or property rights. Are they?

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#112

Post by ericingram »

true_religion wrote: post #58
nestlequ1k wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Save it for econ class. A company's goal is to build a sustainable profit generating engine. To allow this, it needs to play a constructive part in the marketplace and community.

That's in theory. In reality, private companies are personality driven.

So true.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#113

Post by neutronicus »

jacoblyles wrote: post #80
heliodor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Craigslist values us, the users, more than most companies. You know how? By leaving so much money on the table that you can't help but love them! Craigslist is a breath of fresh air in a world where everything is optimized as much as possible to part us from our money!

I don't see how Craigslist refusing to better themselves justifies the millions of hours wasted by their customers using their shitty UI. What a strange sense of justice. If you value users, don't hurt yourself to show it. Rather, don't shut off sites that save them hours of their limited and precious lifetime.

Simple. I don't think Craig is trying to flip his company for an acqu-hire. I don't think Craig will have any investors pulling him by the short hairs towards an IPO.

My prejudice is that PadMapper probably wants to flip the company, and even if they don't, they probably have investors who want them to.

I trust Craigslist, and I don't trust PadMapper.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#114

Post by Maascamp »

kenjackson wrote: post #86
citricsquid wrote: post #2

I think the reason people here feel this way is because the general consensus among HN users is that the best product wins and that's all that matters. If a company has a monopoly on data and refuses to provide an API they're saying that they don't want to compete on the quality of their product (craigslist for example) they want to keep their position without the benefits to the users. Padmapper made craigslist apar…

If a company has a monopoly on data and refuses to provide an API they're saying that they don't want to compete on the quality of their product This implies that part of the quality of a product is NOT the ability to gather data. This would be like me walking into a Walmart, setting up a cash register next to theirs and start ringing up customers and arguing that Walmart can't compare with my customer service. Ignor…

Well said. I'm actually shocked that a community of entrepreneurs would take the position that it's OK to demand access to a company's competitive advantage in order to compete with them.

I'm not sure if it's a sense of entitlement fostered by all the seemingly easy money around tech startups or simply sheer laziness.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#115

Post by latch »

kika wrote: post #64
latch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that as if Craigslist doesn't provide any value to consumers as-is. How much do they owe you? Maybe they should pay you to use their website? Maybe they should buy the item you are interested in for you? You seriously think Craigslist doesn't give a shit about users? Think about what you are saying. Think about the world before Craigslist. It's a free service that even my mother uses. This is the _exact_ sens…

I didn't do a qualified research (I would have told that otherwise) so I can tell for myself. I personally don't use CL exactly because of that - I look at the website and understand that nobody gives a fuck about me here. Not because it doesn't use CSS3, but because it's barely usable. I seriously used CL twice - once I've rented a condo through it (using early PadMapper) and bought a pair of speakers from some loca…

I'm not nervous. I'm _upset_. For two reasons.

First and foremost because you make wild assumptions and accusations. They don't give a shit about users? Have you talked to the Craig? What about other employees? You are throwing a company under the bus because you don't like its design and don't like them controller their API. I hate their decision with respect to PadMapper, but I reserve doesn't give a shit about users for Monsento, tobacco and alcohol companies. You aren't their only user, you might not feel like they don't give a shit about you, but any grander statement is just big meaningless talk.

Secondly, as I originally stated, because you think Craigslist owes you something. They don't. Deal with it.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#116

Post by ericingram »

paulhodge wrote: post #69
MultiRRomero wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craigslist's one goal in the world is to make a profit. That's it. Everything else comes secondary. If they decide that providing users a service will help them accomplish this, then have them provide a good service (which they do). However, they don't owe anything to any businesses or even any users. If users don't like this, let them go to an alternative. Welcome to capitalism, where the users decide what product t…

You talk as if there is perfect market choice - that if a majority of customers want something, it will happen. In the real world, there is not perfect market choice. There are many factors which make it impossible to have perfect market choice. We are probably stuck with Craigslist and LinkedIn for a while, and for the most part, we are stuck with the decisions that their executives make. It's true that if they do s…

You should complain if you really want to, that's part of the market force.

I think perfect market choice is a funny idea. Why would anyone assume the market would function on such a limited plane of understanding, that all you had to do was poll people, you could trust their verbal response, and decide that's what the market should do?

People very often do things in contrast with what they say, even what they believe consciously. There is so much more at play than what people would "vote" for in the sense of a "perfect market choice".

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#117

Post by kika »

jroseattle wrote: post #62
kika wrote: post #8

Correct. But, IMHO, they (Craigslists of the world) owe us, consumers. We're their eyeballs, customers, users, we bring them food, directly or indirectly. Well, at least for myself this is always the case, to greater or lesser extent: when I do something for a user, and user pays me, I feel somewhat obliged. If he pays me $5/mo, it doesn't mean that our contract is renewed from scratch every month. I feel obliged to…

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Craigslist doesn't owe "us" a thing. They offer a service, and for those who pay for it, the exchange is made. Whether or not we think PodMapper is a better service for "us", it's not our choice to make on behalf of Craigslist.

Technically, yes, you're correct. But since this is the interaction between users, owners of the service and owners of the 'proxy' service (all humans), not a JSON protocol between Python and JS scripts, there's something beyond just pure technical contract issues. If we go to the HN drinkup and I borrow a $20 from you to get a taxi home, technically I don't owe you anything, as there's no signed IOU (not even a verbal contract if I omit 'until next time'). Non technically I'm an asshole :-)

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#118

Post by angryasian »

nestlequ1k wrote: post #14

Hell yeah they owe us. Their services would not exist without our user data (netflix excluded). Internet is still relatively young, but I think eventually we're going to have to have laws that regulate how companies that collect user details allow access to 3rd parties. Monopolies are illegal for a reason. Companies who build infrastructure have to manage it fairly.

then leave and don't use it. No one owes you anything people have free choice to use whatever services they want. If you really feel a company owes you something and isn't doing what you expect don't use it.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#119

Post by angryasian »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #38
bherms wrote: post #9

Interesting perspective that I'm inclined to agree with. It seems that large companies with vast amounts of data or users are generally expected to give developers a way to interact, but the reality is that they have the ability and right to control access to said resources however they feel benefits their business best (or even reduces the amount of shit they need to monitor). I've always agreed with Calacanis that…

Rand would say that both parties in a transaction have the right to negotiate the terms of said transaction.

both parties would be craigslist and its users in this case. Which craigslist does allow users to post their information where ever they want.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#120

Post by angryasian »

cabalamat wrote: post #70

> Start-ups should stop feeling entitled to other’s companies data Other companies' data, or other companies' users' data?

once you post it on craigslist it becomes their data. That doesn't stop you from posting the same data to other sites. Craigslist doesn't offer this service but you can freely post your data to other sites, but by no means is craigslist supposed to offer the data that you gave to them to other sites.
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