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How America's universities became debt factories

anandsanwal.me

211–220 of 564 posts

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#211

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I mean for fucks sake we were pushing 18 year old teenagers into tens of thousands of dollars of debt! I dunno about most people but at 18 I had absolutely no clue about anything, especially the concept of money nor career. How the fuck does an 18 year old comprehend why taking $60,000 to get a degree in “Latin Dance” is not a good idea (and we all know many people who fall into this bucket too!). And yet parents, co…

Where were parents? Don't tell me they were absent in such a massive decision that absolutely defines rest of their kids lives.

Yes its horrible to force 17-18 year old to make such an important decisions and also schools should have known better and counsel heavily beforehand. But lets not forget that for the state you are 100% responsible for your actions at that point including any crime, state will happily draft you and send you to get killed if the need arises. Loan management pales in comparison with this.

Truth is harsh, society is harsh and unfair in many aspects. I don't see this improving unfortunately anytime soon.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#212
Simple facts of life about education and (OP) student loans:

(1) Liberal Arts and Sciences. If you have the money/smarts, can go for a Bachelor's degree at an Ivy League university, maybe also join a fraternity, and, thus, get some more understanding of history, civilization, and people and meet some people likely good to know for a good career/marriage.

The Ivy professors are expected to publish a lot of research and, hopefully, get that research funded. The university may take 60% of the research funding for overhead.

I'm shocked, shocked to find US National politics going on here. Here is your 60%, Sir.

The universities like getting the 60%, e.g., for the white table cloth restaurant or the the President's limo. US politicians like funding education.

Due to WWII with radar, sonar, the Bomb, the US government liked to fund research in the STEM fields and, soon, medicine, agriculture, etc. Due to the research, the profs stay bright, with brains active, but otherwise their research has not much to do with what is in the Bachelor's degree courses.

(2) State Colleges. Could get a Bachelor's degree and also a Teaching Certificate which would enable a career in K-12 teaching that could be good for wives and mothers. Low tuition.

(3) State Universities. Could continue and get a Ph.D. Could use that (A) as a union card for a career in college teaching that did not require research, (B) a career in research, maybe as an Assistant Professor trying to publish enough and build reputation enough to get promoted to tenure, (C) whatever else could use the work for. Can regard (C) as speculative with best results quite good for career, wealth, US national security.

One academic direction: Get a good background in math (probability, statistics), physics, and chemistry, and then do research in some other field, e.g., what is happening on the floor of the Gulf of Maine.

(4) Broadly, children need to grow up, and that can involve lots of inputs and experiences. Then they can go fourth into the great US society, lands, and economy and try to be successful. Some Bachelor's degrees might help.

Bachelor's, ..., Ph.D. as job training -- has not been very popular, respected, or successful in the US.

Broadly one effect for young people in the US economy is the economy might continue to grow and develop with new directions; so, ..., a young person can try to select a direction that is or promises growth, get a first job, and go ahead and grow.

E.g., my education concentrated on math and physics. Early career was in US national security which liked math and physics. Soon there was also a lot of interest in computing, so got into that -- right, quick sort, heap sort, AVL trees, numerical issues in matrix inversion and curve fitting, .... At one point, the US Navy was HIGHLY concerned about the US labor force in computing, especially for work in math and physics, and I got well paid to sit, learn about computing, and do some on some Navy sonar data, the FFT (fast Fourier transform), power spectral estimation, etc. As US computing grew rapidly, so did my career. Now, doing a startup in computing using some original math -- that is, combining what I'd gotten like the novel ingredients for a popular new pizza.

So, if job training, trade school, education with good "ROI" for good careers does not work well DIRECTLY, maybe (A) pick some of the best of what is in the libraries and (B) make what can with it -- yup, it's risky, speculative, etc.

My recommendations:

(A) If you can afford (1), fine. Otherwise, don't spend a lot of money on that Bachelor's ... Ph.D. education. I.e., for the OP here, don't take out student loans, and if go to state schools might not need the loans (might not apply to careers in law or medicine). By the way, for grad school, Master's and Ph.D., I never paid anything and did get paid for doing ugrad math teaching.

(B) For a Ph.D., at some schools, courses are optional, the main point is the dissertation, the definition is "an original contribution to knowledge worth of publication", the main criteria for publication is "new, correct, and significant", a cheap way to get the background for such research is independent study, and might do enough of that on evenings and weekends before going for a Ph.D. E.g., not a lot of need for "student loans".

(C) Get some basics, e.g., in the STEM fields, and then look for opportunities in the US economy.

(D) Meet people, especially the right people: It can be better who you know than what you know.

(E) If you are doing really good work as an employee, then maybe see if can do much the same work but for much more money as an owner.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#213
post #110

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

> I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

That's the addendum to the "most important part." These people without an education in complex debt instruments are the vast majority of the time either children, or were children quite recently. Even when it comes to the ones in grad school, I have jeans older than their legal ability to sign contracts.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#214
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't see the government as solution to too many problems. If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. Let the market forces decide. Eventually people will realise college doesn't work and will stop going there. Seriously problem is that too many people think they are smart and can benefit from a degree, when most can't. If 10% top graders go to college from school as it was in the bo…

In this case, government intervention is what caused the problem, and removing that intervention is what would disrupt the multi-million dollar industry. Specifically, the government made it so college loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and backs many student loans. The solution is to remove the exception for student debt in bankruptcy, and either have the government stop backing student loans, or make stricter…

Agree, but the result will be that far fewer kids get to go to college, or get to go to the best college that they can get into.

Loans will only be granted to students who have a track record of high achievement, parents willing to co-sign, and going into majors that make economic sense.

Enrollment will drop, universities will stop offering passion majors, mass layoffs in library science, academia, and college administrations (likely to the tune of 1M+ people).

In the end, students will be told by federal examination which school and major they get to pursue, or whether they get to go to college at all.

That's assuming the government is both effective and efficient in this process.

This is essentially how most consumer economics work.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#215
post #178

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

You forgot: 5) Systematically under-build housing so that future generations will be unable to simultaneously repay these loans and afford a place to live.

Also:

6) Intentionally train too few doctors for the explicit, stated, out-in-the-open purpose of pumping doctor wages. Continue this policy until it is too late to train enough doctors for the coming wave of Boomers.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#216
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

Exactly - 12 years of education to get children ready to be citizens and not single class on how to manage a bank account, or even the most basic education about investments or actual wealth building. Instead, all I was told was to go to college. So... the people that made me woefully sheep like and "financially innocent" then sent me to the wolves because they believed in me. Seriously, they made huge changes to the…

> not single class on how to manage a bank account, or even the most basic education about investments or actual wealth building.

Not everything can be, or is supposed to be, taught by schools. Your parents should've taught you those things, and if they didn't do that they failed you.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#217

The problem here is the time value of money. If the world is based on a production function of compound interest then in a world of finite resources what becomes cheaper over time are cell phones and what becomes more expensive are people's time, because the per unit cost of clean water and housing goes up and technology makes virtualizable goods cheaper. This also has the added benefit of screwing with the Gini coef…

Silvio Gesell essentially makes the argument that the return on mere ownership of real capital is negative in the real world. Positive interest can only exist in a world where demand for capital exceeds supply. Since capital produces capital, we reach the excess capital "regime" eventually. The holding costs of excess capital are negatively therefore people destroy the excess capital. In the positive interest range t…

My position is that global GDP is a compounding function on interest. So you if you take the sum total of the world's GDP you can take out (x - m). You can simplify the equation further to goods produced today and investment, which is similar to your argument.

So you have a total stock of raw resources, the current production function based on technological transformation, and computed interest in the future (which is a compound function). The resource stock is finite no matter its size (like all resources on earth), and the future expected return to transform those resources is expected to go up exponentially.

Competition doesn't matter under these circumstances. So long as investment has a compound function you run out of resources quite quickly or reach a point where whoever owns the most raw resources is the person that wins under the condition of a complicated game of musical chairs.

At 3.5 percent GDP growth rate at a compounded return you have to double the real return of goods in twenty years. Or you have inflation. In a generation the system collapses.

You have to massively redistribute wealth and flatten the gini coefficient almost immediately while assuming that GDP can no longer increase. Or you don't believe in math. There isn't a middle ground. Giving people bonds based on what they do that are nontradeable would be a start, although how you forbid resale is legally difficult. Forming investment vehicles that do what Benjamin Franklin did with the college in philedelphia might help. But the math doesn't work if you have a finite set of resources and a compound function of return. Technological transformation of raw resources into goods isn't a guaranteed exponential function.

Or we'll see more of what's come before. We can afford fancy computers but not homes because cell phones are cheap to produce and land is expensive to own.

Compound interest is a massive problem.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#218

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I would also add 5) Don't educate young people on what their degree would earn them. So many young people think their hobby can become their career and pay for a nice life style. Unfortunately, it's not the case for many majors.

> So many young people think their hobby can become their career and pay for a nice life style. Unfortunately, it's not the case for many majors.

We (as a society) tell kids all the time that their hobby can't be a viable career. Kids are just headstrong and don't want to listen to their parents/other adults telling them unpleasant truths.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#219
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't see the government as solution to too many problems. If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. Let the market forces decide. Eventually people will realise college doesn't work and will stop going there. Seriously problem is that too many people think they are smart and can benefit from a degree, when most can't. If 10% top graders go to college from school as it was in the bo…

> Who's fault it is that they are dumb? They are young. And therefore there is an asymmetry in information.

Yep, and kids also smoke, vape, do drugs, gamble, assault people, play too many video games, etc.

The answers lie in educating them to make good decisions, and be there to help when good decisions happen to turn out poorly. The current dilemma is largely due to provably bad decisions (by students, banks, universities, government).

Are student loans the most pressing "bad decision" we have as a society? Definitely not. Is it a very electable topic? Yep

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took out around $20k in loans to study literature starting in 2001. Graduated in 2005. Rent was $150 a month. Played a lot of poker and disc golf. Studied and learned a bit. Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition. Had a $300/semester book stipend as part of that and just bought penny books off Amazon (one of the benefits of an English degree) and pocketed the difference. Basically for 5-8% or so of my (estimate…

I'm trying to figure out if you missed a 0 at the end of your rent...

In 2001-2005, my rent was $120-$160/mo in a low cost area of the US. The places weren't fancy but they were good enough and safe.

Tuition started around 4k/yr, but had worked its way up to 8k/yr by the time I graduated (which I thought was unaffordable).

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