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How America's universities became debt factories

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#111

Post by huuhee3 »

While the US system is particularly messed up, it's not that great in Europe either.

In my country universities get paid by the government based on number of graduates. Things like quality of education and employability matter very little. So, the end result is a system where many young people spend 5 years of their life on a masters degree that doesn't give them any monetary benefit. The university gets their money, the government gets fancy stats about level of education, but many students end up just misled and wasting their time.

Obviously this is better than graduating with massive debt, but it's still a major financial loss compared to working full time, or studying something employable. In my opinion, what we need is a change in mentality. People shouldn't tell their kids that it's okay to study just whatever you enjoy, at least not until you have some other means of earning a living you're happy with.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#112

Post by fredgrott »

What is missing from the debate....

The rise of Education Grants on Fed level and the decrease of state funds per student...classic economic game-ship gone wrong...

What might have worked better is higher Fed grants per student handed over to states as match grant where it matches state funds in the same student.

Anything else delves into false narratives around false facts....

And we do in fact have an example of said cure working...elementary education where no student has a debt...everyone forgets the 1-12th grade school system that works with no debt transferred to students....

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#113

Post by freshtake »

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

5) Do nothing about the problem until the debt becomes too large, then attempt to blanket cancel the debt without expecting any fallout. All the while doing nothing to fix the underlying issues.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#114

Post by bufferoverflow »

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I would also add

5) Don't educate young people on what their degree would earn them.

So many young people think their hobby can become their career and pay for a nice life style. Unfortunately, it's not the case for many majors.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#115

Post by cruffle_duffle »

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I mean for fucks sake we were pushing 18 year old teenagers into tens of thousands of dollars of debt! I dunno about most people but at 18 I had absolutely no clue about anything, especially the concept of money nor career. How the fuck does an 18 year old comprehend why taking $60,000 to get a degree in “Latin Dance” is not a good idea (and we all know many people who fall into this bucket too!). And yet parents, councilors, teachers, and “the whole system” pushed this onto every kid in high school.

And then society turns around and mocks them later on for being “stupid” and “lazy” or whatever… fuck that shit. Society strongly told kids that college, any college, was the only way to have a future.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#116

Post by lispisok »

firejake308 wrote: post #87
lordnacho wrote: post #47

I don't know if this is some kind of heresy, but here we go. I don't think universities provide much value at all to the common student who is not going to be a PhD. I went to a very well-known institution known for putting the students in a room with the professors, maybe two or three students, to one professor. My economics professor taught me one on one. I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in…

I mean, a lot of trades do have standardized tests. The LSAT for law school, the MCAT for medical school, and the CPA exams for accounting come to mind. I don't know why computer science hasn't organized in this manner, maybe because it's a younger field or maybe because there are simply too many people and employers don't care enough about having certified employees.

It's a younger field. A lot of self-taught people think they will be excluded (they wouldnt be). There is a deliberate effort by execs to lower the salaries of software developers by ensuring there are no barriers to entry and flooding the market which the vast majority of the workforce has been tricked into going along with.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#117

Post by lordnacho »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #95
lordnacho wrote: post #47

I don't know if this is some kind of heresy, but here we go. I don't think universities provide much value at all to the common student who is not going to be a PhD. I went to a very well-known institution known for putting the students in a room with the professors, maybe two or three students, to one professor. My economics professor taught me one on one. I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in…

Except for medical students, who require a teaching hospital and all its equipment.for their education Except for EE and other engineering students, who require lab and other equipment for their education Except for chemistry, biology, and other science students, who require chemistry equipment, etc. for their education. You get the idea. Even for fields that require no specialized facilities, frankly, I don't see an…

> Except for medical students, who require a teaching hospital and all its equipment.for their education

They're not really students in the normal sense, they fit more into the PhD category that I mentioned, since they need actual personal help.

> Except for EE and other engineering students, who require lab and other equipment for their education

I have an engineering master's from a world famous university where the lab work was pretty pointless. It didn't count for much if at all, and was more or less just entertainment.

If you were doing a PhD, you would do experiments where the outcomes were not a foregone conclusion. In undergrad, it's not any different from baking a cake, it ain't gonna go any differently than expected.

I suspect you'll learn more watching a video of someone doing the experiment, that way you are not concerned with trivialities like converting units and wearing safety goggles. Something like what NileRed does for chemistry.

> Even for fields that require no specialized facilities, frankly, I don't see any Fields Medal or Turing Award winners that are self-taught nor do I have any reason to expect to see any in my lifetime.

Well, that level of work requires a personal contact, like a PhD advisor. I am addressing undergrad work, which is fairly ordinary material that has already been well digested.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#118

Post by kraussvonespy »

magnoliakobus wrote: post #86
robertlagrant wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. That's why the article's saying you should be able to declare bankruptcy. > And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI.…

I think most people would agree with me in saying the European model sounds pretty swell compared to forcing people into declaring bankruptcy because of economic/personal factors potentially out of their control, while also inserting an incredible amount of volatility into the entire university system that would make long term institutional planning much less possible.

And in the US, bankruptcy doesn't help with the student debt, so if the majority of your debt is student loans, there's really nothing that can be done other than die to get rid of them. And I'm 100% certain that if the student loan - industrial complex could saddle relatives and kids with that debt after death, they'd sure go after that too.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#119

Post by oldprogrammer2 »

crazygringo wrote: post #88
gruez wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In Europe, they have a simpler system. Education is paid for from taxes. If a student does well, they pay for it via taxes. If they don't, then they aren't crippled by debt. That's all well and good for the student, but what about for taxpayers/governments who's funding that education? >And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school t…

> That's all well and good for the student, but what about for taxpayers/governments who's funding that education? We can say the same thing about K-12 education -- it's just something we choose to fund collectively, because that's the kind of society we want to be. But also, progressive taxation means that the rich fund it more than the poor. So the general idea is that if law school and medical school are expensive…

But it’s not the same as K-12. I can’t send my kids to an expensive private boarding school and expect taxes to pay for it.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#120

Post by BobaFloutist »

advael wrote: post #12

I think it's really sad that we so reflexively consider universities vocational training that criticism of universities so often includes "offering degrees that won't get you a job" Actually academia predates the push to gate jobs behind undergraduate degrees, and trying to repurpose these institutions that mainly exist to train and employ researchers to be fully general vocational schools has been a disaster in ever…

Well people aren't paying them $30,000 for the love of the game
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