How America's universities became debt factories • Hacker News Board

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#71

Post by amelius » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:30 PM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #26

advael wrote: post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

We shouldn't see the government as solution to too many problems. If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. Let the market forces decide. Eventually people will realise college doesn't work and will stop going there. Seriously problem is that too many people think they are smart and can benefit from a degree, when most can't. If 10% top graders go to college from school as it was in the bo…

> Who's fault it is that they are dumb?

They are young. And therefore there is an asymmetry in information.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#72

Post by ben_w » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:30 PM UTC

daedrdev wrote: post #35

mrfox321 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China does this, for better or for worse.

They are not a supportive example, their one child policy doomed their demographics and future economic growth.

They stopped the one child policy nine years ago; they had it in the first place because demographic projections had them severely overpopulated if they didn't.

During the period in which it was active, their GDP increased by a factor of about 62. Not percentage, multiple.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#73

Post by halfcat » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:31 PM UTC

advael wrote: post #18

WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's too disruptive, and there's too high a chance of unintended consequences. Instead of that what you'll see is a 'we'll kill this multi-billion dollar industry over the course of the next 30 years'

With all due respect, fuck that. We do disruptive stuff with unintended consequences for millions of people as a matter of policy all the time, and the idea that it'll disrupt some finance goons' ponzi scheme does not bother me

> some finance goons' ponzi scheme

If you mean banks, there’s the problem that “let it die” often translates to “shift the obligation”, which typically gets shifted to the tax payers, either in plain sight after a bailout, or under the table by devaluing the currency (basically taxation without having to say it).

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#74

Post by sieabahlpark » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:31 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #56

anovikov wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn't see the government as solution to too many problems. If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. Let the market forces decide. Eventually people will realise college doesn't work and will stop going there. Seriously problem is that too many people think they are smart and can benefit from a degree, when most can't. If 10% top graders go to college from school as it was in the bo…

> If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. First, no, we have some high-visibility examples of dictators claiming to be socialists , several of whom had purges of other internal opponents who said socialism was a different thing to what they were doing. We don't point to the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"* or "The Democratic Republic of Congo" then say of Democracy (or of republi…

[dead]

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#75

Post by hrnnnnnn » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:31 PM UTC

wood_spirit wrote: post #69

Many years ago I went to university in the uk. Entry required good grades but tuition was free and there was a reasonable grant to live on. Twenty or so years ago the grant became a loan and, more recently, tuition fees were introduced. Nowadays way more people go to uni but come out saddled with debt. Presumably the incentives are the same as described in the article for the US: the uni wants as many students as pos…

When I graduated in the UK in 2006, I had to pay an extra £3000 because I graduated.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#76

Post by jancsika » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:32 PM UTC

mchusma wrote: post #41

advael wrote: post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

But…the whole point is that it is NOT a market. If student debt is dischargeable and the government guarantee is removed or dramatically reduced, pretty much all problems are “solved”. Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. Universities that provide a poor ROI will shut down. Universities will need to reduce costs for traditional coursework, cut courses with poor returns, add courses with higher returns. Th…

> If student debt is dischargeable and the government guarantee is removed or dramatically reduced, pretty much all problems are “solved”.

Chesterton's fence definitely applies here.

If you don't understand what that law attempted to prevent in the first place, you're just going to get your pocket picked by a different group of people.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#77

Post by chii » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:32 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #45

It's bizarre to me how accepting we are of the idea that higher education should cost anything let alone be mind-bogglingly expensive. This is wildly successful propaganda. Student loan debt was an explicit political goal [1]: > "We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat," announced Reagan advisor Roger A. Freeman during a press conference on Oct. 29, 1970. Freeman, an economics professor at Stanford, was…

> the idea that higher education should cost anything

somebody has to pay it - whether it's the students themselves via loans, or via tax payers.

> Harvard, for example

so may be harvard, if they should so feel charitable, could pay for their student's costs via their endowment funds. But what about _every other uni_?

Not to mention that the endownment's a private source of funds - you're just as well be asking why don't billionairs just fund more public costs?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#78

Post by freshtake » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:32 PM UTC

Agreed with the overall consensus that we should let this market be guided by true market forces, but I also think people often assume the wrong outcome of this.

Universities give students a ton of control over their education. Where do you live, what classes do you take, when can you unenroll, etc.

Want higher graduation rates without lowering the grading bar? Simple, do not permit part time enrollment, even for one term. Sounds harsh.

Want better job prospects on graduation? Simple, kill off 90% of majors (dance, sociology, etc.)

The reality is that people generally think of college was a guarantee of success (it isn't). Many people would do better going to trade schools.

Attending an elite university will always be expensive (in HCOL cities, high demand for students and professors, etc.)

We need to stop treating college like a basic right, or a place for people to chase their dreams. Dream chasing is great, but if someone else has to pay for it, incentives will never align.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#79

Post by dgfitz » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:34 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #47

I don't know if this is some kind of heresy, but here we go. I don't think universities provide much value at all to the common student who is not going to be a PhD. I went to a very well-known institution known for putting the students in a room with the professors, maybe two or three students, to one professor. My economics professor taught me one on one. I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in…

> I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in a pile of books, on your own time.

I feel compelled to link the quote from Good Will Hunting here, I will refrain. However I agree completely. I also went to a “great” school, and I learned everything from overpriced books on my own time. In fact, in my entire tenure of undergrad I never attended a full week of class, not even the first week.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#80

Post by ben_w » Sat, Sep 14, 2024, 5:35 PM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #64

ben_w wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. First, no, we have some high-visibility examples of dictators claiming to be socialists , several of whom had purges of other internal opponents who said socialism was a different thing to what they were doing. We don't point to the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"* or "The Democratic Republic of Congo" then say of Democracy (or of republi…

No, i mean EU socialist countries. To the tune of Sweden, Netherlands, etc. That are little but sleepy retirement community with no ways to make money. Why would anyone with any ambition want to live there? So they don't. They go to America in spite of all it's horrors and sins. Live there once they made they money? Also no, because taxes, they go to the likes of Cyprus or Malta, or since recently, Spain [1]. These c…

*points at my own profile*

I moved from the UK to Germany, I actively decided against the USA. Why? Consider what was going on politically in the US right after the UK voted for Brexit.

Σκεφτόμουν την Κύπρο, αλλά οι Άγγλοι λένε όταν κάτι είναι δύσκολο να διαβαστεί: "It's all greek to me"