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How America's universities became debt factories

anandsanwal.me

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#41
post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

But…the whole point is that it is NOT a market. If student debt is dischargeable and the government guarantee is removed or dramatically reduced, pretty much all problems are “solved”.

Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. Universities that provide a poor ROI will shut down. Universities will need to reduce costs for traditional coursework, cut courses with poor returns, add courses with higher returns.

The inflation in higher education that has run rampant due to subsidized demand being removed.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#42

I wonder why there's no mention of a free education as an alternative solution to the broken system

I think in part because on the "buyer" side, there's often a problem of how to sort through 100 resumes for a position. Given that in any given pile of resumes, probably 70% are unqualified, filtering for "degree" is an easy way (though naturally not great, though how not great it is is hard to measure, which of course means we do it) to cut the work required in half or more.

Free education does not mean "no degrees", it means "funded from taxes/ by goverment".

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#43
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that time they were also incredibly exclusive and mostly the rich.

Yea, and jobs that selected by university degree wanted to implicitly select for class Making the path to go to a university more accessible is admirable. Entrenching this hiring practice with policy designed to enforce its implications on universities was always ill-conceived and the consequences have mostly been negative, creating a class of permanent debtors, turning universities into dysfunctional and corrupt qua…

And some jobs do. As I've noted elsewhere if you want to go into Big Law, you go to a relative handful of law schools, which are heavily fed by undergrad Ivies, and clerk at a high federal level.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#44

The profit motive at work.

The profit motive reliably exposes brokenness. What changed to make loans for useless activity profitable? Normally, a loan for useless activity wouldn’t be issued, because of the expectation that it wouldn’t be repaid.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#45
It's bizarre to me how accepting we are of the idea that higher education should cost anything let alone be mind-bogglingly expensive. This is wildly successful propaganda. Student loan debt was an explicit political goal [1]:

> "We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat," announced Reagan advisor Roger A. Freeman during a press conference on Oct. 29, 1970. Freeman, an economics professor at Stanford, was also an advisor to President Richard Nixon.

> "We have to be selective on who we allow to go through [higher education]," Freeman added.

Poverty is intentional and a necessary condition for capitalism. It creates a malleable and compliant labor force. Student debt, medical debt, housing debt. All of it only exists to make a handful of extremely wealthy people slightly more wealthy.

Modern universities aren't really about education at all. They're simply hedge funds in a trenchcoat.

Harvard, for example, makes what? Half a billion in tuition per year? But they have upwards of $50 billion in their endowment. The interest alone could fund the entire university.

[1]: https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/threat-of-educate...

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#46

Meanwhile, I know of German and Dutch peers of mine who upon completing their masters in Europe, enrolled in California to do a second Masters ( at the time I believe they paid in the range of $100k) for the VISA and internship opportunities. And IIRC, the bet paid off because they all found employment in California, with salaries 3x to 4x what they could get here.

Masters in the US are essentially diploma mills for OPT work authorizations

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#47
I don't know if this is some kind of heresy, but here we go.

I don't think universities provide much value at all to the common student who is not going to be a PhD.

I went to a very well-known institution known for putting the students in a room with the professors, maybe two or three students, to one professor. My economics professor taught me one on one.

I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in a pile of books, on your own time.

Not with other students, and not in lectures, and not in tutorials.

This is a bit different from school where you can actually learn the material in class because, let's face it, school doesn't have a very deep curriculum.

So at university my impression is that they mainly tell you what to go and read about, and then you read about it yourself. The tutor is there to course correct you a bit, but they aren't going to do much other than save you a bit of time learning the orthodoxy of your subject. The lectures are a table of contents. At most, it's really just a guy telling you that you should know what an eigenvalue is, or you should have read about the ISLM model, and so on. For you to actually understand something, well, you have to have spent a lot of time in the books rearranging your mind.

Given that this is what you actually do at university, why have it this way?

Make an examination authority. "Here is the national linear algebra test. Anyone who wants to try it, sign up, and come to this hall on this date." Everyone who passes, whether they studied at home or went to fancy U, gets a paper that says they passed it. Do it as a 12 year old prodigy or a 75 year old grandma, you get a diploma.

Now, maybe there is already an authority that does this, I don't know. But it isn't very well known or authoritative.

The current incumbents are gatekeepers. Everybody thinks that smart kids go to the most prestigious universities, and that includes employers. It's a Schelling point that doesn't need to be there, and it allows the universities to extract a great deal of value from the kids.

If you made this authority of examinations, many people could learn the material and show their competence without incurring huge costs.

People could start working earlier. You could separate the coming-of-age experience from academic learning. Poor people could participate more.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#48
post #41
post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

But…the whole point is that it is NOT a market. If student debt is dischargeable and the government guarantee is removed or dramatically reduced, pretty much all problems are “solved”. Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. Universities that provide a poor ROI will shut down. Universities will need to reduce costs for traditional coursework, cut courses with poor returns, add courses with higher returns. Th…

> Universities will have to start focusing on ROI.

In Europe, they have a simpler system. Education is paid for from taxes. If a student does well, they pay for it via taxes. If they don't, then they aren't crippled by debt.

The problem with the ROI approach is it still places too much burden on the student, and, well, life happens. Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you.

And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#49
post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

We shouldn't see the government as solution to too many problems. If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. Let the market forces decide. Eventually people will realise college doesn't work and will stop going there. Seriously problem is that too many people think they are smart and can benefit from a degree, when most can't. If 10% top graders go to college from school as it was in the bo…

Socialism is a term too broad to mean anything. When we say socialism, do we include states that provide healthcare systems as infrastructure, as is common across the world? Do we include the vast amounts of market interference represented by decisions about what crimes can be hidden behind a corporate veil, what companies win lucrative government contracts to have decades of non-competitive profits?

The attitude that the government shouldn't intervene against companies on the behalf of human rights has been tried for fifty years, and it is an unprecedented failure even in financial terms for at least roughly 80% of the population of one of the largest and wealthiest countries in the world in terms of real purchasing power. Even for many of us in higher income brackets, the resulting crumbling infrastructure and drastic wealth disparities leave much to be desired as a society to live in. Many of these problems have solutions, and calling them "socialism" is meaningless as an argument against them

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#50
post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

We shouldn't see the government as solution to too many problems. If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends. Let the market forces decide. Eventually people will realise college doesn't work and will stop going there. Seriously problem is that too many people think they are smart and can benefit from a degree, when most can't. If 10% top graders go to college from school as it was in the bo…

> We shouldn't see the government as solution to too many problems. If we overdo on it, we get socialism. And we know how it always ends.

With a place in the top 10 happiest countries? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-...

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