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DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

diypresso.com

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Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#81
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the whole Gaggiuino situation is so stupid it's unbelievable. Let's use "Gagguino" to mean "the authors of the original Gagguino" and "Faceuino" to mean "the guy on facebook" just to make it easier to explain the situation: Faceuino started selling his own kit based on the Gaggiuino designs with some modifications. Since the code and the designs (models and PCB) were permissively licensed, this was done at a…

Thank you so much for breaking this situation down with such clarity. I've had the Gagguino mod on my personal project list for a while, and when I saw that they went closed source I was flabbergasted. Your writeup is the first I've seen that puts the situation in context. And honestly... it's tremendously disappointing. I may end up selling my old Gaggia classic rather than keeping it around just for this.

I mean, aside from the bizarre licensing decisions and the fact the main guy behind Gagguino is extremely abrasive if you ever interact with him, the mod itself works well, at least the previous version (which I have installed). If you get the PCB v3 (you can get it manufactured yourself, or get it from the various suppliers) then it's an amazing upgrade to the machine.

For the previous version (what runs on PCB v3), the code is there. The new version adds a wifi, a web server, a higher quality HMI, and a bunch of additional profiling features. You can get the same profiling features in the original firmware if you just write your own code, although that's a bit janky.

The old code is written in some pretty ugly arduino C++ and you will need to use platformio to build it (which has telemetry enabled by default, which you should disable[0]) and the architecture as a whole is very "EE grade" (anyone who has seen any quantity of embedded code written by EEs will know what I mean). But it's workable as a basis for your own experimentation.

I've been meaning on just wholesale replacing the firmware, the existing firmware is very simple since the concept behind the machine is nothing new as far as control systems are concerned (Kalman filters, PID, and a curve to map between the current pressure and what flow rate to expect from the pump per pulse so you can do flow control). Most of the hard part is tuning the (somewhat custom but not exactly revolutionary) PID which was done before the project was relicensed, as well as calculating the pressure/flow curves for an the vibratory pump (again, mostly done before the relicense, but not hard to replicate if you take a blind basket and modify it to be a controllable flow restrictor).

The main thing stopping me is the choice of the original mod to use a Nextion HMI which uses some awful proprietary GUI designer and a proprietary file format. I don't really like the idea of having to use a proprietary GUI designer in a project, and the Nextion is very limited (which was certainly a motivating factor in the Gagguino authors working on the new display).

[0]: https://docs.platformio.org/en/stable/core/userguide/cmd_set...

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#82
post #79
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based upon the sales of Nespresso machines and pods a lot of people seem to disagree with you regarding the taste.

People still buy supermarket instant. I think the problem is actually that people don't know what good coffee tastes like, nor do they care.

If it tastes good to them then it is good coffee. Could it just be case of different strokes for different folks and some wanting to feel superior?

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#83
post #80
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People wouldn't use Nespresso pods if they found them to be horrible tasting, as you claim they are, no matter how convenient they are. They use them because they both enjoy the taste and find them convenient. Most people like the taste of Nespresso pods, k-cups, drip coffee and Starbucks. The sales of all 4 reflect that.

They taste horrible compared to a good coffee, but they do taste better than crappy coffee shop espresso served in any country where espresso is not a common drink.

Plenty of people find them to be quite tasty and many people don't particularly like what you are calling good coffee. Coffee snobbery is like most snobbery it says more about the person being snobby.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#84

This is very cool! Sidetrack: the website mentions "driving espresso innovation forwards". Is this a thing? I love coffee but mostly just use a french press or a moka pot (which are more "great old school tech" than "innovation")

Oh, yes. Look up the Decent DE1 to see what that means.

I will drink moka-pot coffee if that's all that's available, but espresso is what I want to have most days. So I have a good enough grinder and an mid-range espresso machine. It isn't always a success. Sometimes it's sour, sometimes bitter, sometimes too weak. Most of the time I don't have a clue why, so I can't address anything in particular, I can only try changing one of the few variables I can control with my setup, and hope to god that the other ones haven't changed on their own.

People are really serious about consistently producing real good espresso. Control and observability are what these machines offer.

If you want to fall into the rabbit hole Lance Hendrick's YouTube goes in depth into recent research and technique. And James Hoffman is a similar but more approachable source.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#85
post #6

Love it. There’s a surprising amount of hackability in espresso machines — reminds me a lot of bicycles as an approachably fun tinkering project.

Do you know of any resources to help learn bicycles? I wish I could tune my own bicycle but can't seem to figure it out. I can build my own computer, change the oil in my car, paint a house, etc. but my bicycle always befuddles me.

It's a learning curve. Start with the bits of regular maintenance you need to do, and go on YouTube to learn how to do it. Besides Sheldon Brown's webpage, Park Tools make great maintenance tutorials.

Start with tuning brakes, to changing chains, and tuning derailleurs, changing cables, taking bits off for cleaning.

It will feel cumbersome, and a few times you will get yourself into a mess and end up taking a more-broken bike to the shop. But you'll get there eventually.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#86

The closest I've gotten to DIY espresso is EspressoForge: https://espressoforge.com/

Man I’d love to get this semi-affordably in Europe. Such a cool product. I use a Cafelat Robot for my morning brew and it’s consistently the highlight of my day. Manual espresso rules

I don't really see the advantage compared to your Cafelat Robot, or a Flair.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you so much for breaking this situation down with such clarity. I've had the Gagguino mod on my personal project list for a while, and when I saw that they went closed source I was flabbergasted. Your writeup is the first I've seen that puts the situation in context. And honestly... it's tremendously disappointing. I may end up selling my old Gaggia classic rather than keeping it around just for this.

I mean, aside from the bizarre licensing decisions and the fact the main guy behind Gagguino is extremely abrasive if you ever interact with him, the mod itself works well, at least the previous version (which I have installed). If you get the PCB v3 (you can get it manufactured yourself, or get it from the various suppliers) then it's an amazing upgrade to the machine. For the previous version (what runs on PCB v3),…

Same here with v3 and now being flabbergasted that my "open" project is suddenly dead-ended. (Re)doing an alternative software for PCB v3 is definitely possible, it just runs into economics, at average hourly rate we would put into it it just cheaper to buy decent espresso machine and move on.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#88
post #83
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They taste horrible compared to a good coffee, but they do taste better than crappy coffee shop espresso served in any country where espresso is not a common drink.

Plenty of people find them to be quite tasty and many people don't particularly like what you are calling good coffee. Coffee snobbery is like most snobbery it says more about the person being snobby.

You don't know what I am calling a good coffee. I appreciate some people don't like particularly sour coffee because it's unusual for them but you can do a lot better than nespresso in the realm of that style of darker roast coffee too.

It's really simple, people are happy with it because actually good coffee is so rare that they have nothing to compare against. I also doubt most of these people have ever drank a well brewed light roast espresso anyway so I think your blanket statement about "many people don't particularly like what you are calling good coffee" is bullshit.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#89
post #82
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People still buy supermarket instant. I think the problem is actually that people don't know what good coffee tastes like, nor do they care.

If it tastes good to them then it is good coffee. Could it just be case of different strokes for different folks and some wanting to feel superior?

Or they have no perspective. See my other comment.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#90
post #87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, aside from the bizarre licensing decisions and the fact the main guy behind Gagguino is extremely abrasive if you ever interact with him, the mod itself works well, at least the previous version (which I have installed). If you get the PCB v3 (you can get it manufactured yourself, or get it from the various suppliers) then it's an amazing upgrade to the machine. For the previous version (what runs on PCB v3),…

Same here with v3 and now being flabbergasted that my "open" project is suddenly dead-ended. (Re)doing an alternative software for PCB v3 is definitely possible, it just runs into economics, at average hourly rate we would put into it it just cheaper to buy decent espresso machine and move on.

> it just runs into economics, at average hourly rate we would put into it it just cheaper to buy decent espresso machine and move on.

Ha! I never thought about it this way, you're probably right on the time cost. Although, while the Decent espresso app which runs on the android tablet front end is open source, the firmware running the machine itself is not (unless I'm wrong). But given you can talk to it over bluetooth I think it fits my concept of "good enough" as the protocol is implemented in the open source app and the firmware as it stands gives you all the control knobs required to produce any result.

That being said, the reason I even considered a rewrite is because I particularly enjoy these kinds of ridiculous firmware replacements. For example, I've investigated it for the possibility of using rust to do it, it would be quite a bit of work as I would have to probably contribute to the state of the art but I've wanted an excuse for an embedded rust project and the STM32F411 (what you get in V3 by default) seems like not a terrible chip to base it on.

Gagguino has switched to STM32U585 and it seems like it's also supported relatively well in the embedded rust ecosystem.

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