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Mondragon as the new city-state

elysian.press

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Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#361

Post by aguaviva »

jujube3 wrote: post #359
thiagoharry wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exchange value produced in the business with or without the dishwater would be exactly the same if they are from the same society. It is not the individual labor, but the socially necessary labor that is counted. Moreover, value is also entirely different than price. I never said anything about "use the theory, except when its silly". What was silly was the example because of the lack of understanding of the pare…

I never said we should forbid discussion of Marxism. I just think it should be treated the same as Nazism, with which it shares many similarities. The general pattern of "find a minority, say that they are the source of all problems, argue for dictatorship so you can solve the problems" is clearly present in both. This is called "vanguardism." I've already presented several scenarios where a different amount of labor…

"find a minority, say that they are the source of all problems"

That's not what Marxism says at all.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#362

Post by eszed »

rglullis wrote: post #319
eszed wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier (both psychologically and financially) for users to budget for $x per period - with an explicit or implied promise that it won't ever be more than that - and it's easier for the org to plan for y users at $x, than it would be for either to adjust to paying / chasing $z period. It's a fairly common pricing strategy, which offers stability to both clients and organizations surviving on shoestring budgets an…

If you want to be protected against unexpected costs, you buy insurance, you don't overpay "just in case". All I am saying is that the coop (at least cosocial.ca) is not more capital and resource efficient than any good old service provider. We are talking here at a 250% price difference for less functionality. How would you justify that for orgs on a shoestring?

I don't think that's quite the way to look at it. Insurance is for disasters. Unexpected costs should be covered by a reserve fund - so, in effect, you self-insure for that kind of thing.

Neither of us know anything about the financials of this group, but I can imagine a scenario in which they catch on, and their userbase scales 47x overnight (I mean, they're hoping for that, right?) and they need to spin up new resources right now. Good luck getting someone to write a "we got really popular" insurance policy, let alone pay out within the matter of hours / days they'd need the money. The "extra", right now, could be going towards filling up their reserve fund. Or not - we don't know - but that would be one of any number of legit reasons for asking for more than marginal-cost contributions.

Anyway, people supporting this aren't doing it out of an entirely economic cost / benefit calculation. They believe in whatever mission the org has, and have a high-trust relationship with it, so "paying" more for whatever "product" won't be a concern for them (at least right now). The contribution model the organization has chosen is ideally suited for that sort of (not purely business) relationship.

This group likewise doesn't interest me, but I can tell you stories about organizations I've belonged to and / or helped run that have worked that way more successfully than they would have in any other.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#363

Post by rglullis »

eszed wrote: post #362
rglullis wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be protected against unexpected costs, you buy insurance, you don't overpay "just in case". All I am saying is that the coop (at least cosocial.ca) is not more capital and resource efficient than any good old service provider. We are talking here at a 250% price difference for less functionality. How would you justify that for orgs on a shoestring?

I don't think that's quite the way to look at it. Insurance is for disasters . Unexpected costs should be covered by a reserve fund - so, in effect, you self-insure for that kind of thing. Neither of us know anything about the financials of this group, but I can imagine a scenario in which they catch on, and their userbase scales 47x overnight (I mean, they're hoping for that, right?) and they need to spin up new res…

> Insurance is for disasters

No, insurance is the basic tool for anyone dealing with risk management and financial planning under chaotic variables. One class of these variables are "disasters", but "people get old and less productive in unpredictable rates" is also something that warrants insurance (pensions) and there will be plenty of people making a living by buying and selling options trading in the commodity markets, which also can be seen as "insurance"

> and their userbase scales 47x overnight (I mean, they're hoping for that, right?)

Why would they? They are not looking for boundless growth, just a sustainable operation for their servers.

> They believe in whatever mission the org has, and have a high-trust relationship with it

But what is this mission? "Run a service sustainably, without profiting of user data and contribute to the development of an open social web?" To me it seems there is not much else they can claim beyond what I said, and if that is the case then I can report that all of that is achievable through my run of the mill service that offers more services while costing 40% less.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#364

Post by greenie_beans »

RHSeeger wrote: post #176
greenie_beans wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is a risk for the worker and renter, too. and opportunity costs. my shelter not being destroyed is extremely more important to me and my life than my landlord who has insurance for such things, especially in a place with a housing vacancy less than 1% (aka very very hard to find housing). if i leave, they will have no problem finding a tenant to take my place. any repairs and maintenance are essentially paid fo…

Other than the risk of being evicted from your rental, a homeowner has most of the risks of a tenant, plus more. And there are a fair number of protections for renters to lower that risk. There are some risks of the landlord being a bad player, which makes the renter's life worse. The landlord has the risks that the renter doesn't (that a homeowner does); which is risk offloaded from the renter to the landlord. The l…

a couple of days ago, i learned that my lease is terminated outside of my control. you want to help me find a new spot? it's very hard with a cat and a dog in this area. all of the available apartments will be at least $300-500/month more within an hour radius of where i currently live.

this puts my life in a very tenuous place (especially bc i don't have full-time employment, took an actual risk to make a living on my own). i don't think the landlord has that risk.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#365

Post by kylestlb »

nec4b wrote: post #295
kylestlb wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marx wrote a gigantic book called Capital and it provides a thorough analysis of investment and risk. He wrote a great deal of words describing how investment relates to surplus value (hint: investment is simply a capitalist's way of generating surplus value - profit, which is then used to generate more surplus value, which is... you understand the systemic contradiction here, I hope). You should probably read it if…

From the same genre I like Grimms' Fairy Tales more. They seem more realistic.

You think the seminal work of the founding father of social sciences is a fairy tale? Says more about you, I'm afraid

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#366

Post by kylestlb »

WalterBright wrote: post #317
Apocryphon wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Marxist so I have no interest in justifying their theories. However, if I made my personal brand all about being what a staunch anti-Marxist I am, I would hazard an effort to try to understand their position, if for nothing else but to understand why so many others have bought into it, and to be a more effective opponent against it.

Marxism is just one of many utopian schemes that do not work. I do not need to study every perpetual motion machine design to dismiss them. It's their job to show that they work. What amazes me is the people who desperately cling to Marxism despite its 100% failure rate. How can they make a career studying it and never notice its history? Do you notice that nobody has been able to point to a Marxist success story, af…

Das Kapital isn't "Marxism" is just a book about economics my guy. "Marxism" didn't exist when Marx was alive. Here to help

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#367

Post by eszed »

rglullis wrote: post #363
eszed wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's quite the way to look at it. Insurance is for disasters . Unexpected costs should be covered by a reserve fund - so, in effect, you self-insure for that kind of thing. Neither of us know anything about the financials of this group, but I can imagine a scenario in which they catch on, and their userbase scales 47x overnight (I mean, they're hoping for that, right?) and they need to spin up new res…

> Insurance is for disasters No, insurance is the basic tool for anyone dealing with risk management and financial planning under chaotic variables. One class of these variables are "disasters", but "people get old and less productive in unpredictable rates" is also something that warrants insurance (pensions) and there will be plenty of people making a living by buying and selling options trading in the commodity ma…

Everything you say about risk-management is correct, but none of it scales down to non-profit organizations without employees. Pensions aren't involved, commodity trading is irrelevant, and insurance for four or low five-figures of "float" isn't practical.

Your services look great, and I don't "get" these guys either. The people who do are (for now) happy to contribute at whatever level for whatever reason. Not being a "competitor" (as you seem to be?), I'm happy to wish them well.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#368

Post by nec4b »

kylestlb wrote: post #365
nec4b wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the same genre I like Grimms' Fairy Tales more. They seem more realistic.

You think the seminal work of the founding father of social sciences is a fairy tale? Says more about you, I'm afraid

If you think Das Kapital is scientific work, you will have no problem providing a reference to any successful society or a company following the principles from it.
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