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Mondragon as the new city-state

elysian.press

251–260 of 372 posts

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#251
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is the logic of collective. In capitalism you decide how you'd want to spend your resources, on a farm or on a rocket. In collective it is collective who decides.

Capitalist farms - why are they farms and not rocket makers? Is capitalism holding them back?

In capitalism it is your choice how to spend your resources - on the farm or on a rocket shop.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#252

I've studied and visited Mondragon before, and hosted their students at my company. It's very cool, but I'm unsure how replicable the model really is. My conclusion is that it emerged out of the unique environment of already high Basque solidarity, but even more so under Franco's oppression. After a few generations, they admit that the hardcore spirit is gone and made initiatives to try to restore it, but still some…

[deleted]

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#253
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I can’t speak to op’s emotional well being, but he is spot on with his reasoning. In the rarified air that most of us here inhabit, it’s easy to forget that for every college professor there is someone for whom tying their shoes is a significant cognitive challenge. For every really smart person, there is someone who lacks the cognition to participate meaningfully in society. For every brilliant individual, there is…

Yeah, we take a lot of things for granted. Intelligence is relative, and so we do find a normal distribution when defining IQ with a target median and mode of 100. However, we don't have to construct a society where thriving requires a median intelligence! That's a choice made by those who, as you say, benefit more from the system.

It's not so simple to measure intelligence, anyway. I marvel at some of the things a below-average person does every day such as drive a car at high speeds on the interstate, or navigating political bureaucracy. Meanwhile, I'm two standard deviations above the mean but have ADHD and sometimes struggle with basic tasks that even people of below-average intelligence have mastered.

The contrast is so much at times that I can see the confusion and concern in the faces of those around me whenever I have an ADHD moment. Yet, I'm an expert in multiple subjects, a quick learner and have a well-developed sense of intuition. People are multi-faceted, and we're not going to get very far with over-simplistic models of intelligence.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be because since 2019 and the withdrawal of the US military presence in NE Syria, the relative prosperity of Rojava has plummeted. This draws into question exactly how 'autonomous' said autonomous zone was.

Yeah that's on of the things that get hand-wavity when you bring up these city-state type plans as well as anarcho-whatevers. They generally wouldn't be big enough to defend themselves from religious extremists or nation states acting against them--many of them not even figuring in defense against other entities and saying "we're pacifists". That kind of stuff only works when external factors like aggressive neighbor…

I mean, if you're going to make that kind of political argument you can claim that Western Europe's postwar prosperity and relatively strong welfare states are a by-product of America footing the bill for defense (plus the seed investment of the Marshall Plan).

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#255
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the OP: “Lorenzo estimates that the president of Mondragon is the highest-paid position (level 6) with a salary of around €200,000. Managers and directors earn between €80,000 and €120,000.”

So the president makes less than a middle manager in a Fortune 500 company. I hope there are some other benefits…

[dead]

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that's on of the things that get hand-wavity when you bring up these city-state type plans as well as anarcho-whatevers. They generally wouldn't be big enough to defend themselves from religious extremists or nation states acting against them--many of them not even figuring in defense against other entities and saying "we're pacifists". That kind of stuff only works when external factors like aggressive neighbor…

I mean, if you're going to make that kind of political argument you can claim that Western Europe's postwar prosperity and relatively strong welfare states are a by-product of America footing the bill for defense (plus the seed investment of the Marshall Plan).

That, and surplus value extraction from the global south, yes.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well actually socialism has been historically concerned with maximizing human creativity. Fourier’s utopian vision was “libidinal” work that aligns passions with labor. Marcuse has a similar view in Eros and Civilization. Chomsky views creativity as axiomatic for humans, and syndicalism the appropriate system for harnessing it.

[flagged]

> Where are all the creative products the Soviets made?

Didn't they make Sputnik

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's located in Spain, a country not known for its vast wealth. Plus, it's in a special administrative region in Spain, the Basque Country. They enjoy subsidies and favorable treatment from the regional government.

> a country not known for its vast wealth Its looting of the gold and silver from S. America apparently didn't help.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take. Better to have a system based on creating things.

> The problem with a system based on taking is that one runs out of things to take. Pretty damning critique of capitalists there, comrade.

What was America like before capitalists? and after? Where did all that wealth come from, comrade?

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be because since 2019 and the withdrawal of the US military presence in NE Syria, the relative prosperity of Rojava has plummeted. This draws into question exactly how 'autonomous' said autonomous zone was.

Yeah that's on of the things that get hand-wavity when you bring up these city-state type plans as well as anarcho-whatevers. They generally wouldn't be big enough to defend themselves from religious extremists or nation states acting against them--many of them not even figuring in defense against other entities and saying "we're pacifists". That kind of stuff only works when external factors like aggressive neighbor…

This is downvoted maybe due to its tone but I understand the general point here to be a valid and known issue with anarchist communities?
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