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Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

theguardian.com

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Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#171
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dog must have missed the memo. He'll come over at EXACTLY 6 o'clock (to the minute) to remind you about dinner if it hasn't yet been served. He used to do the same in the morning but eventually we reached a truce on the concept of sleeping in from time to time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Are you implying he's conditioned me?

Out of curiosity we've tried to figure out if there's some external cue he's relying on outside of a very accurate internal 'clock', and haven't found any. He's consistent even in the face of timezone changes and travel across the country (and other mundane tricks that'd eliminate stimulus like daylight cues), different environments / homes (ruling out equipment / building / neighbourhood noises), and different humans (in case his usual companions unwittingly broadcast hints).

I'm forced to the conclusion he swallowed a Rolex at some point.

My own schedule isn't particularly routine otherwise, so it's actually not an unwelcome anchor. He does understand and give up after a couple attempts if you tell him 'later' or have an obvious reason for the delay. He's intent, but not impolite.

We left him with a friend once for a few days who feeds their own dog an hour earlier. The discovery that 5 o'clock dinnertime can be a thing completely rocked his world. He tried to share this revolutionary breakthrough with us but with limited success.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SPJ’s innovation, was to keep it bipartite and below— making sure type IIIs didnt feel like they were a higher class & everyone else was type II (Imagine an army with only NCOs and officers, but the NCOs are type IIIs) No proles (grunts) in the orgchart of a very large design agency..culturally, designers often happy to work like grunts anyway! (Painters = painters) This trouble with the proles (app store, actual sto…

> So that no rabbit would sign up in the first place. I liked Добро пожаловать, или Посторонним вход воспрещён (1964), in which the summer camp director plays a very soviet version of an Eric Berne Transactional Analysis* game, "Everything I do, I do it for you". According to wikipedia, it's infamous in russian for the lines: — Children, remember! You all are the owners of the camp. [All of] you! What do you all [the…

[PS] B Russell, In Praise of Idleness

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#173
post #63

It always bothers me how little intelligence we assume of and thus ascribe to the animal kingdom. Especially to our mammalian brethren, who have many of the same underlying neurological mechanisms (though in differing quantities). Dogs have co-evolved with humans for thousands of years. Remembering names seems like a useful albeit unsurprising skill, especially when it comes to recognizing/avoiding danger. “The bear/…

I agree, I think there is a lot of intelligence around us, perhaps even in ways we don't fully see or imagine. One of the largest organisms on Earth is a mycelium network in Oregon, it's nearly 4 square miles in size. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-... Is it possible this mass of mycelium has some form of intelligence that is difficult for humans to measure? Maybe it "knows" things we can…

>Is it possible this mass of mycelium has some form of intelligence that is difficult for humans to measure? Maybe it "knows" things we can barely conceptualize.

That's actually the plot of a Garrett P.I. novel.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#174
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood people who say dogs are hard to train. They are SO motivated by food

Dogs actually don’t need food for training. It’s an effective, but “lazy” way to train dogs. The best practice is behavioral, to show you are the leader in the dog’s pack. Then you won’t need to ever give a treat for good behaviour. And even in my case where I do give a treat some times, my dog completely obeys me “organically”. PS.: I’m a veterinarian.

There's certainly a degree of luck regarding a dog's demeanor though. I have a BC / Beagle mix and started training her with treats: she's highly food motivated!

Eventually I realized she also loves to please - and reason things out herself - and the food was completely unnecessary! No specific "dominance" training necessary.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#175

It always bothers me how little intelligence we assume of and thus ascribe to the animal kingdom. Especially to our mammalian brethren, who have many of the same underlying neurological mechanisms (though in differing quantities). Dogs have co-evolved with humans for thousands of years. Remembering names seems like a useful albeit unsurprising skill, especially when it comes to recognizing/avoiding danger. “The bear/…

I am also bothered by mainstream definitions of intelligence and our humanity's egocentric ascription.

I personally really appreciate the definition of intelligence from Dr. David Krakauer, a mathematical biologist. Krakauer once said on Sam Harris' podcast (episode 40):

Intelligence is, as I say to people, one of the topics about which we have been most stupid. All our definitions of intelligence are based on measurements that can only be applied to humans. An IQ test is not interesting if you’re trying to calculate the intelligence of an octopus — which I would like to know, because I believe in evolution. I think we need to understand where these things come from, and having a definition that applies just to one particular species doesn’t help us. We’ve talked about entropy and computation, and they’re going to be the keys to understanding intelligence.

Let’s go back to randomness. The example I like to give is Rubik’s cube, because it’s a beautiful little mental model, a metaphor. If I gave you a cube and asked you to solve it, and you just randomly manipulated it, since it has on the order of 10 quintillion solutions, which is a very large number, if you were immortal, you would eventually solve it. But it would take a lifetime of several universes to do so. That is random performance.

Stupid performance is if you took just one face of the cube and manipulated that one face and rotated it forever. As everyone knows, if you did that, you would never solve the cube. It would be an infinite process that would never be resolved. That, in my definition, would be stupid. It is significantly worse than chance.

Now let’s take someone who has learned how to manipulate a cube and is familiar with various rules that allow you, from any initial configuration, to solve the cube in 20 minutes or less. That is intelligent behavior, significantly better than chance. This sounds a little counterintuitive, perhaps, until you realize that’s how we use the word in our daily lives. If I sat down with an extraordinary mathematician and I said, “I can’t solve that equation,” and he said, “Well, no, it’s easy. Here, this is what you do,” I’d look at it and I’d say, “Oh, yes, it is easy. You made that look easy.” That’s what we mean when we say someone is smart. They make things look easy.

If, on the other hand, I sat down with someone who was incapable, and he just kept dividing by two, for whatever reason, I would say, “What on earth are you doing? What a stupid thing to do. You’ll never solve the problem that way.” So that is what we mean by intelligence. It’s the thing we do that ensures that the problem is efficiently solved and in a way that makes it appear effortless. And stupidity is a set of rules that we use to ensure that the problem will be solved in longer than chance or never and is nevertheless pursued with alacrity and enthusiasm.”

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The complexity of human language, social structure, and technology is not even in the same ballpark as animals. Humans make iPhones and travel to space and write War and Peace. We dominate the world, changing its very climate and wiping countless species off the planet, and no other species even tries to stop us. That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can…

> That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can have a conversation with 99.9% of humans, something you can’t do with any other animal. The other list of accomplishments is not even needed to surpass what animals can do. You have to be intentionally being obtuse to suggest that the gal between humans and animals is not an order of magnitude away from the gap b…

Your point doesn't touch my argument. I'm saying if you are claiming superiority over other animals, you can also claim superiority over weaker humans, for the same reasons, with the same results.

By the way, you can't have a proper conversation with someone, if you don't speak the same language.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in no way religious, and I don't think we are fundamentally different than other animals, but I don't think it is surprising that most of us (myself included) think of human emotions and intelligence as being on a completely different level than animals. The complexity of human language, social structure, and technology is not even in the same ballpark as animals. Humans make iPhones and travel to space and writ…

> The complexity of human language, social structure, and technology is not even in the same ballpark as animals. Humans make iPhones and travel to space and write War and Peace. We dominate the world, changing its very climate and wiping countless species off the planet, and no other species even tries to stop us. That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can…

> We dominate the world, changing its very climate and wiping countless species off the planet

To add on to your argument in the context of this quote, I also think this is also an extremely compelling argument for not only the arrogance of mankind, but the true stupidity of mankind.

We treat our one and only planet -- source of survival -- like its rental. Hopefully within the next century, we can develop some method to eat those iPhones because we might not have many options left.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#178
My dog remembered a song. I may have posted before. Zuni (a lurcher) and Pasha (a greyhound) were two dogs we rescued about 12 years ago. We took two because they were together and we didn't want to split them up. Zuni was a howler. He'd howl if he heard the ice-cream truck, and Pasha would join in.

Now, in our house, music is playing pretty much constantly, and we always assumed that dogs either didn't understand it or didn't care about it. But whenever the Warren Zevon song "Werewolves of London" came on, my wife would try to get Zuni howling with the "Aaaaaaaah Ooooooh" bit. Every time the song would come on, she'd make the same silly joke with the dogs. Zuni would begin to howl immediately, and Pasha would join in with him.

Well, Pasha was diagnosed with bone cancer and we lost her a few months after that. Sheena couldn't bare playing the song and I intentionally avoided it. We got another greyhound as a companion for Zuni.

About a year after we got Lily, I put on a random mix and wandered around the house doing chores. Some time later I heard the first bars of Werewolves in London and immediately though "damn, I hope the wife doesn't hear this". Before I could finish the thought, Zuni was howling his head off, and racing around the house, I think, searching for Pasha.

It hadn't even gotten too the "Aaaaaaaah Ooooooh" part. Which means that he also recognised the song in the first few bars.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#179
post #174
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs actually don’t need food for training. It’s an effective, but “lazy” way to train dogs. The best practice is behavioral, to show you are the leader in the dog’s pack. Then you won’t need to ever give a treat for good behaviour. And even in my case where I do give a treat some times, my dog completely obeys me “organically”. PS.: I’m a veterinarian.

There's certainly a degree of luck regarding a dog's demeanor though. I have a BC / Beagle mix and started training her with treats: she's highly food motivated! Eventually I realized she also loves to please - and reason things out herself - and the food was completely unnecessary! No specific "dominance" training necessary.

That is actually my point: if your dog likes to please you, it’s because in part it sees you as a leader. It’s not so much (always) about specific training (and definitely nothing resembling being an “alpha” in modern parlance).

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#180

It's not too surprising as they (in movies and also my dog) respond well after years to just the call of names of people they had a deeper relationship with. So if we associate the name of a toy, eg. "go get the penguin" and they played with it for long period of time, it makes sense that they form a relationship with the toy as well and had memories of it. Dogs dream (I imagine the noise and movements they make whil…

I think the key difference isn't the memory, but the recall. Humans can recall memories at will, while dogs often require a prompt or stimulus, and there's not a clear indication that they're self-recalling information to think about things beyond a period of persistence. That's not diminutive of them, more a reflection that we've been selecting dogs for this behavior and other "breed traits" (which I think of as spe…

I don’t think I can recall memories at will. They pop up when I get cues.
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