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Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

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Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The divisions between Scots and English really do go quite deep OK, but the divisions are unlikely to lead to open warfare like they have 3 times between Pak and India.

Are you aware of "The Troubles", the 25-ish year campaign of insurrection carried out by Northern Irish separatists? I would suggest that's closer to "open warfare" than it is supporting a football team.

Were the Troubles a conflict waged between the Scots and the English?

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#92
post #78
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote neighboring countries. There is also a difference -- granted, sometimes quite small in civil wars -- between terror/guerilla. (Besides, most any case is from the cold war.) Also, if a country is the biggest terror sponsor on the planet, like Iran, I don't exactly feel sorry as long as civilians aren't targeted. Edit: To be obvious, terror is worse for western governments, since they need to win elections. The…

In my opinion the "biggest terror sponsor" has to be the US and other "leading" European countries such as my own: France. All recent large-scale wars have been perpetrated by these countries and what's worse on the very name of freedom and for the ultimate good of human beings (except when it was a revenge, but I'd forgive America for that one quite easily even though it's one of the biggest recent mess). Ahmadineja…

>>In my opinion the "biggest terror sponsor" has to be the US and other "leading" European countries such as my own: France. All recent large-scale wars have been perpetrated by these countries

Wars != terror. Which you know, you're just arguing dishonestly.

(Also, check the democratic peace theory on Wikipedia.)

Second paragraph -- "Ahmadinejad has Fuck-You-Power" is totally wrong, too. Most analysts claim he is on the wrong side with the theocracy and is more or less a figurehead for now.

I stopped reading. You're a propagandist or a troll.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#93
post #57
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read another article about Pakistan, from a more-or-less US military perspective: http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx " The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-contro…

When reading such things, we should try to imagine what Pakistan is facing in its remote areas. The coalition forces messed things up in the area. Why was Bin Laden was in Pakistan? Several Pakistanis regions bordering Afghanistan live in a legally or de-facto quasi-autonomy. They are tribal by nature (be it their name or not) and since the war in Afghanistan started, they are facing deep changes in their power struc…

The claim that the perpetrators of 9/11 were only "what the West sees as terror networks" is breathtakingly disingenuous.

I hear that Bin Laden died in Abbottabad. I'm no Pakistan expert, but on my map that is not in FATA. It is a short commute from the capital of the country. The house was right next to a top military academy.

If openly supporting the perpetrators of 9/11 is what Pakistan needs to do in order to 'ensure that these areas don't radicalise more' then I wonder for whose benefit Pakistan is doing this wonderful thing. Certainly not New York's... probably just the government of Pakistan, actually. What do I care, if that government also would like me to die, whether it considers some villagers to be radical?

Lese-majeste sucks, but seriously - buying Thai parts through Japanese companies is hardly comparable to harboring and feeding intelligence to the perpetrators of 9/11 in order to maintain the upper hand in the conflict with India.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#94

British Pakistani here. Schmidt has not seen Pakistan for what it really is - a cesspool of corruption and poorly educated people. Pakistan has two major problems. Primarily, education of the people ... what good is a democracy if people cannot understand the democratic system - nor see past the public visage and look deeply into what kind of person a political candidate is. This poor education leads Zardari (a corru…

> Nowhere else in the world would a criminal become the president of a nation.

You're overstating it; Berlusconi is a counterexample.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#95

great read - but in the process of painting a peachy picture for the future, he glosses over a huge core problem that pakistan has. The fact that a significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india.

This alludes to it:

> The press are generally hyper-critical of the United States policies in the region and take the view that the India-US relationship is driving much of our countries behavior.

It's put in diplomatic terms, but anyone from a western country will recognise it as saying that the public discourse about India (and the US) is far from rational. Your other comments are a lot more precise, so thanks.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#96

The emergent middle class of Pakistan won’t settle for a corrupt system with constant terrorism and will push for reforms in a burgeoning democracy. Here’s to the new civil society of Pakistan, who will use connectivity, information and the Internet, to drive a peaceful revolution that brings Pakistan up to its true potential. Gosh, I sure hope so. Maybe Eric should talk to some of the Green Revolution folks. I don't…

> The question I would have like Schmidt to answer is this: is Pakistan a country?

Given that there is no real agreed definition as to what exactly a country is, it's unlikely that Schmidt could answer that. Also your definitions about what a country is are strangely arbitrary and seem to have little to do with whether a country is a country or not.

But, but almost any definition of country, Pakistan is a country. It may have many problems, but it's absurd to suggest that it might not be.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#97

The emergent middle class of Pakistan won’t settle for a corrupt system with constant terrorism and will push for reforms in a burgeoning democracy. Here’s to the new civil society of Pakistan, who will use connectivity, information and the Internet, to drive a peaceful revolution that brings Pakistan up to its true potential. Gosh, I sure hope so. Maybe Eric should talk to some of the Green Revolution folks. I don't…

I think you raise valid points. One difficult problem is (and I have faced this myself for the longest time and it is evident the Eric Schmidt is suffering from it as well) is that one tends to appraise a country along a line that mirrors one's own priors of what a country typically is. Such priors usually mirrors ones own country.

Pakistan's position is really very unique and it takes time to understand it. The usual labels take very different meanings. For instance what the western world calls "middle class" almost doesn't exist in the form that they expect it to. Even if it did, it has nowhere the clout or the purchase. The country is deeply, and I do mean deeply, feudal. "Middle class" either means of a feudal family decent or of military lineage. Feudal land holdings and military are the two, and pretty much the only two centers that drives the economy and are locked in their desire to keep their privileges intact. If you are interested in this topic, do take time to find out what percentage these two forces account for.

And then you have the significantly large radicalized population. And even here it is very different. You would think radical groups are fringe groups, but not quite so in Pakistan and this has been cultivated by deliberate intent over several decades. The identity of a victimized population that the world has been unfair to because of their religion gets ingrained very early in the education system. Such a belief of persecution is rampant even in the mainstream, sometimes given a modicum of a veneer. Its difficult to catch these undertones unless one is familiar with the language and reads the same newspapers that the Pakistanis read, or watch the same TV shows that Pakistanis watch. Find out about Zaid Hamid and then consider the fact that there he is as main stream as vanila ice-cream.

Next word: army. It is very different from an army one would expect to see. It is a cross between a rich political party that has an unprecedentedly militarized cadre and a mafia house doling out favors (in the form of jobs and other privileges) to keep the population in control. On one hand it controls what you would call the civic life and on the other it also controls albeit at a very decentralized way the different Jihadi outfits which are again smaller mafia houses as entrenched in an economic endeavor as much as a religious one. Its common to dismiss these radical outfits as religious whackos, but you would get a better understanding if you also follow the money and see how the business side of it works.

Entwined with the feudal system is a deep ethnic undercurrent and you would often find the different parties locked in a perverse game theoretic equilibrium trying to gain control. All this goes unreported in the western media, or well in their own country as well. To see what I am talking about, dig up statistics of violence related civilian (police personnel included) deaths in Karachi in the past year, and Karachi is the most liberal city there.

The funniest comment by Eric Schmidt was about freedom of the press. That does not exist. Unless you have some seat of power guarding your life you cant say what you want to say at least not while residing in Pakistan.

If you have interest you can follow this sarcastic blog of a faux major http://majorlyprofound.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/prospects-fo... but you have to read between the lines because beneath the sarcasm there lies a lot of deliberate thought.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#98
post #77
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I mention India exactly?

I misunderstood your defence of supporting groups that do terrorism against other countries. It was just too weird. (And when discussing Pakistan's terror support, it is hard not to talk about the groups infiltrating Kashmir.)

Or Mumbai...

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#99
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the…

you're not woman or gay or an atheist i guess. istanbul is to turkey what new york is to the usa - an outlier, nothing in common with the rest of the country. i have a friend who was a human rights lawyer in turkey, defending kurdish dissidents - he lives in austria now, cause after being in jail, being tortured, etc he had enough. real, nasty torture, not loud music. turkey is on its way back into islam, atatürk's l…

> so, all in all, you have no fucking clue what you're posting about.

Your response would have been better without this.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#100
post #78
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote neighboring countries. There is also a difference -- granted, sometimes quite small in civil wars -- between terror/guerilla. (Besides, most any case is from the cold war.) Also, if a country is the biggest terror sponsor on the planet, like Iran, I don't exactly feel sorry as long as civilians aren't targeted. Edit: To be obvious, terror is worse for western governments, since they need to win elections. The…

In my opinion the "biggest terror sponsor" has to be the US and other "leading" European countries such as my own: France. All recent large-scale wars have been perpetrated by these countries and what's worse on the very name of freedom and for the ultimate good of human beings (except when it was a revenge, but I'd forgive America for that one quite easily even though it's one of the biggest recent mess). Ahmadineja…

> Nuclear power is like the instant disruption factor in the balance of power.

I used to believe this, but now I think it's no longer true. It's a case of aspirant countries looking up to the nuclear powers, and drawing the wrong conclusions.

Nuclear weapons are the end-product of a system and process. There's a notion that to surpass the master, you need to ask what the master sought, rather than copying what the master did. In some way, this pursuit of nuclear weapons is cargo-cultish.

How much more secure would Iran be if it had invested money in offensive and defensive cyberwarfare, instead of nuclear?

The problem is that the talent required to drive that doesn't want to live in Tehran, when they can live in San Francisco, New York, or Montreal.

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