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Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

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Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#61

Post by derleth »

_b8r0 wrote: post #26
asto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali... In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage... The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incid…

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the…

> Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK

OK, I'll bite: Who has been abused for dissenting in the US?

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#62

Post by hythloday »

berntb wrote: post #44
nakkiel wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I wen't to Pakistan I was pretty happy with it and I'm not even a rich dude. Carefully check how the Muslim world works because it's quite similar to how the Western works: it's a bunch of different countries that share common interests and disagree on a lot of other things. Trying to make a story with three links pointing at different countries.. Try the same with Hungary, Spain and the USA. You will hardl…

I read another article about Pakistan, from a more-or-less US military perspective: http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx " The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-contro…

At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on.

Are you serious?

"In Nicaragua, the National Guard was a militia and a gendarmerie created during the occupation of that country by the United States from 1909 to 1933. It became notorious for human rights abuses and corruption under the regime of the Somoza family."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(Nicaragua)

"The United States' Joint Special Operations Command (JSOT) conducted training for the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), an Iranian opposition group listed by the US as a terrorist organization, journalist Seymour Hersh claims."

http://www.rt.com/news/us-terrorist-mek-intelligence-747/

"Washington, fearing the spread of Soviet influence (and worse the new government's radical example) to its allies in Pakistan, Iran and the Gulf states, immediately offered support to the Afghan mujaheddin, as the "contra" force was known."

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a86operationc...

I'm sure you're aware that the mujahheddin became Al-Quaeda.

This is just the US, because that's where the majority of the posters on this site are from. You can easily find examples of the UK & France doing the same thing. "The western countries" hands are not clean.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#63

Post by berntb »

nakkiel wrote: post #57
berntb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read another article about Pakistan, from a more-or-less US military perspective: http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx " The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-contro…

When reading such things, we should try to imagine what Pakistan is facing in its remote areas. The coalition forces messed things up in the area. Why was Bin Laden was in Pakistan? Several Pakistanis regions bordering Afghanistan live in a legally or de-facto quasi-autonomy. They are tribal by nature (be it their name or not) and since the war in Afghanistan started, they are facing deep changes in their power struc…

Do you have any supporting references for thinking it is just funny that ISI et al support terror groups, mainly for use against India?

It is easy to infiltrate the militarised border to go into Indian Kashmir for the terrorists? The Pakistani military REALLY tries to stop the infiltrators...? :-)

And so on.

I'm not an expert, but I need good references or I'll think you're a troll or writing propaganda.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#64

Post by _b8r0 »

planetguy wrote: post #50
_b8r0 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Paki…

I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism. It's a sweeping statement but it clearly has nothing to do with race. For instance, this dude would be happy in Singapore or Thailand but not in the bit of Malaysia that lies between 'em. I doubt it's because of the marginally different racial mixes you're likely to find as you cross the borders.

I'll just leave this here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Singapore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Thailand

You are right that religion != race, and for that I apologise. However, the anti-islam sentiment that I see tends to focus on those 'nasty brown people', which too unfortunately pakistanis get lumped into.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#65

Post by buyx »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #36
omarqureshi wrote: post #22

British Pakistani here. Schmidt has not seen Pakistan for what it really is - a cesspool of corruption and poorly educated people. Pakistan has two major problems. Primarily, education of the people ... what good is a democracy if people cannot understand the democratic system - nor see past the public visage and look deeply into what kind of person a political candidate is. This poor education leads Zardari (a corru…

Interesting. A lot of what you said rings true for my country too (South Africa). Thing is, you're both right! These countries are truly multi-faceted. There are rich, educated people with high technology and those without. Anyway, I'll be interested to see if technology and communications are the panacea to education problems that Schmidt says they are. If so that's good for South Africa, the Internet is growing tre…

I agree. South Africa spends large amounts on education has a huge amount of human potential that is being wasted because of the dysfunctional public school system (I speak as an almost-victim of that system). I don't see the grip of SADTU (the largest teacher union, and indirectly aligned to the ruling party) being weakened, and I expect a few more generations of mediocrity, unless something radical is done.

Interestingly, we have had things like the Learning Channel for many years (think Khan Academy but on videotape, and starting in the late 1980's), but the copyright, now held by Avusa, a media company, makes it very expensive. The CC licenced Mindset Network doesn't strike me as being of comparabile quality.

With broadband penetration and open access to remote learning materials we could at least try to break the cycle of mediocrity caused by under-skilled teachers.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#66

Post by omarqureshi »

barry-cotter wrote: post #56
omarqureshi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not talking about education as in, "can you perform open heart surgery?". Im talking about education as in, "can you write your name in Urdu?"

Why would Pakistanis want to be able to write their name in a Mojahir language? They could write it in English, Punjabi, Sindhi or Pushtun instead. And you exaggerate as to how shit education is. * According to the latest Pakistan Social and Living Standards Measurement (PSLM) Survey 2008‐09, the overall literacy rate (age 10 years and above) is 57% (69% for male and 45% for female) compared to 56% (69% for male and…

what kind of crazy country do you come from where Also, Urdu is the national language of Pakistan - so I would expect everyone to be able to write their name in that language.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#67

Post by hythloday »

hollerith wrote: post #35
arethuza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland is currently preparing for a referendum on splitting from the UK (which really means, as far as Scots are concerned, splitting from England). In what I'm sure is a complete coincidence, the referendum is going to be in the same year as the 700th anniversary of the climactic battle of the Scottish War of Independence at Bannockburn. The divisions between Scots and English really do go quite deep - at least fr…

>The divisions between Scots and English really do go quite deep OK, but the divisions are unlikely to lead to open warfare like they have 3 times between Pak and India.

Are you aware of "The Troubles", the 25-ish year campaign of insurrection carried out by Northern Irish separatists? I would suggest that's closer to "open warfare" than it is supporting a football team.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#68

Post by hythloday »

asto wrote: post #14
jbm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I am reading a lot of comments like this lately on HN. It is always about the same group of countries too. Whether it is the "I hate to be a hater.." comment I read last week in the article about some random Arab nation introducing better schools, or this article about Pakistan. You will notice it also in articles about Israel or other "politically charged" areas too. In short, glossing over the entire arti…

Pakis have been brainwashed since birth by "education" to hate Indians and Hindus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_textbooks_controversy Interestingly, here in India too we have had controversies with textbooks. Our current ruling coalition has been accused of pandering to Muslims to tap the votebank!

Dude, I assume you don't know it, but "Paki" is a pretty horrible racial slur for many cultures. Please don't use that word unless you want your point to be completely lost.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#69

Post by berntb »

hythloday wrote: post #62
berntb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read another article about Pakistan, from a more-or-less US military perspective: http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx " The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-contro…

At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on. Are you serious? "In Nicaragua, the National Guard was a militia and a gendarmerie created during the occupation of that country by the United States from 1909 to 1933. It became notorious for human rights abuses and corruption under the regime of the Somoza family." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(Nic…

I wrote neighboring countries. There is also a difference -- granted, sometimes quite small in civil wars -- between terror/guerilla. (Besides, most any case is from the cold war.)

Also, if a country is the biggest terror sponsor on the planet, like Iran, I don't exactly feel sorry as long as civilians aren't targeted.

Edit: To be obvious, terror is worse for western governments, since they need to win elections. The idea with terrorism is to scare civilians -- it is just a place where those governments don't want to go.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#70

Post by kleim »

kika wrote: post #37
_b8r0 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the…

Please stop propaganda. There's no jail in France for the hidjab (or what this scarf is). It's a 150 euro fine. Not for wearing the hidjab, but for covering the face in public. Real jail time or corporal punishment is a different story, don't you agree? Let's say I had a few beers and took a leak on the street. Is there a difference between a few hundred bucks fine and having my weapon of crime chopped off? There's s…

"Remember what Christians were doing 600 years ago? Inquisition, Crusades, etc" Yeah Christians did it 600 YEARS AGO. But islamic countries do that kind of horror nowadays and AFAIK they did not developed in a bubble, isolated from the other countries. So it is perfectly relevant to judge them. Human Rights are universal, not a simple "cultural standard".
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