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Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

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Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#21

Post by _b8r0 »

asto wrote: post #16

Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3] I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me. [1] http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2] http://en.w…

> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright.

Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine.

The problems in Pakistan are not about whether or not it's a "muslim country" as you put it. The problems are based on what is societally and culturally acceptable which is a progression of traditions and norms, not Islam itself.

Let me put it this way, try swapping Muslim out for Jewish and re-read that statement, or Muslim for Christian. How do you think a muslim Pakistani would feel dressed normally for Pakistan in the bible belt of the US? Does that mean that they shouldn't go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans?

I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#22

Post by omarqureshi »

British Pakistani here.

Schmidt has not seen Pakistan for what it really is - a cesspool of corruption and poorly educated people.

Pakistan has two major problems. Primarily, education of the people ... what good is a democracy if people cannot understand the democratic system - nor see past the public visage and look deeply into what kind of person a political candidate is.

This poor education leads Zardari (a corrupt politician who has ties to the murder of Murtaza Bhutto) only coming to power due to a three way effect of a sympathy vote (assassination of Benazir Bhutto), bribery and threats to people who work on his land (he is one of the largest land owners in Sindh). Nowhere else in the world would a criminal become the president of a nation.

The secondary problem is ALL the corruption from the upper levels of politics, to the police itself. If you're caught speeding in Pakistan, simply apologise to the officer who has caught you and slip him a few hundred rupees.

Want to get out of the airport faster by not having your bags security checked? Slip 500 rupees to the security officer.

Are you the prime minister of the country being investigated for money laundering? Make the lives hell for judges and lawyers.

Fix the education problem and everything else will fall into place and this is something that I truly hope that PTI will do, should they on the unlikely chance get into power (I say unlikely as I envisage that the PPP will somehow manage to bullshit their way through another election).

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#23

Post by esalman »

redwood wrote: post #8
kamakazizuru wrote: post #3

great read - but in the process of painting a peachy picture for the future, he glosses over a huge core problem that pakistan has. The fact that a significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india.

Similar to Bangladesh, the anti-Pakistan (e.g. the anti-anti-India). All Pakistan's problems (except the bloodshed) are worse here :(

I won't compare but Bangladesh is not in a very bad shape. Compared to 20 or even 10 years back, we've made great progress. Sure everyone will talk about corruption, cost of living and power problem but the economic and industrial activities are showing sound resistance and never slowing down.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#24

Post by asto »

_b8r0 wrote: post #21
asto wrote: post #16

Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3] I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me. [1] http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2] http://en.w…

> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Paki…

In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali...

In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage...

The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incident because of the video leakk. Who knows what else goes on there. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099

Oman will throw you in jail for dissent with the govt http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/oman/oman-crackdown-on-dissent...

A lot of these emirates are guilty of encouraging human trafficking to allow supply of cheap labour. When your rich american/european visits the UAE, he doesn't see the human rights violations going on right around him - partly because his environment is sanitized of ill treatment of labour from poorer countries and partly because he chooses not to see. Should we all just shut up about the UAE's behaviour then?

The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support. I didn't mean to go muslim bashing with my comment but as you can see, they're easy to classify in this fashion. I wouldn't go to China either for the same reason I wouldn't go to a muslim country.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#25

Post by tallanvor »

_b8r0 wrote: post #21
asto wrote: post #16

Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3] I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me. [1] http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2] http://en.w…

> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Paki…

I'm willing to visit Jordan and Turkey (Turkey is already on my list of places to go, in fact). But Morocco, Dubai (UAE), and Oman are definitely not "perfectly fine". And race isn't a factor for me in making this distinction - the laws of the country make the decision for me, and any country that punishes private, consensual sex among individuals of the same gender through fines or jail time is a country I'm not willing to risk visiting, whether or not I plan on having sex there.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#26

Post by _b8r0 »

asto wrote: post #24
_b8r0 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine. The problems in Paki…

In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali... In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage... The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incid…

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked.

Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the world and aren't just limited to states with a majority muslim population.

> The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support.

It's clear you've never been to Turkey. Turkey's outpaced the EU for economic growth for years and effectively dodged an economic bullet by not joining the EU. It may benefit by not being in the Euro, but loses out on tariffs and taxes. If you walk around Levent in Istanbul you'll see the real money's coming from China, Russia and the Middle East, not Europe.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#27

Post by pknerd »

asto wrote: post #16

Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3] I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me. [1] http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2] http://en.w…

I find it more media brainwashed than anything, come to Karachi and by my guest. You will definitely regret on your last opinion

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#28

Post by pknerd »

A Pakistani from Karachi here.

What actually amaze me most of the time that people consider Pakistan similar to Afghanistan and they believe that Pakistan == FATA region. The reality is that Fata is not even 5% of Pakistan and the region is disturbed because of invasion in Afghanistan and closed cultural ties between FATA and Afghans.

Totally agree about Mobile penetration in Pakistan. It is something similar to Africa. The difference that in Pakistan there is no wider acceptance of mobile usage other than sending useless SMS and Spams. There are only 2 companies offer mobile payments and that are also not TRUE mobile payments.

The technology is quite enjoyed by Pakistanis both in rural and urban areas. The biggest obstacle is corruption and politicians itself who don't let people to get educated.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#29

Post by intended »

_b8r0 wrote: post #26
asto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali... In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage... The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incid…

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the…

With regards to your other points, I have nothing to add.

Regards Turkey - I'm not disagreeing, but I must point out that Turkey wouldn't have gotten to where it is except for a freak chance in getting Ataturk who specifically modeled the country to be viable to enter Europe; that process is being reversed gradually by the those elected in power today.

Turkey is where it stands precisely because Ataturk decided that they had to join the Euro region, and then had the military on his side who constantly defended his vision and the secular fabric of the nation.

Later, the Euro rejected them, to their current benefit.

Today, the secular institutions built during the earlier reign are slowly being converted and accommodating a new political reality which is a lot more comfortable with its Islamic credentials.

edited for flow and clarity

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#30

Post by conover »

alan_cx wrote: post #7
kamakazizuru wrote: post #3

great read - but in the process of painting a peachy picture for the future, he glosses over a huge core problem that pakistan has. The fact that a significant part of its identity is based on being the anti-india.

Historically, isn't the USA kinda based on being anti-British? Wasn't there some war thingy where you chaps booted us out? We get on now, don't we?

The colonies were an ocean away during the age of sail. I imagine things would have turned out quite differently if Britain was on our southern border.
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