Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#271

Post by SoftTalker » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:29 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #258

ang_cire wrote: post #90

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

Developers of the past worked towards the title of webmaster. A webmaster can manage a server, write the code and also be a graphic artist. Developers want to do it all. What has changed is micromanaging of daily standup which reshapes work into neat packages for conversation but kills a non linear flow and limits exploration making things exactly as requested instead of what could be better.

I never thought of a webmaster as meaning that. When I think of webmaster I think of a person who updates the content on a website using a CMS of some sort. Maybe they know a bit of HTML and CSS, how to copy assets to the web server, that sort of thing. But they are not sysadmins or programmers in the conventional sense. Maybe it just varies by employer.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#272

Post by anonzzzies » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:29 AM UTC

skydhash wrote: post #241

anonzzzies wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. I found this too. But I also found the opposite, including here on HN; people who are interested in technology have almost an aversion against using AI. I personally love tech and I would and do write software for fun, but even that is objectively more fun for me with AI. It makes me far…

> people who are interested in technology have almost an aversion against using AI Personally, I don't use LLMs. But I don't mind people using them as interactive search engines or code/text manipulations as long as they're aware of the hallucination risks and took care of what they're copying into the project. My reasons for it is mostly that I'm a journey guy, not a destination guy. And I love reading books and man…

> I'm a journey guy, not a destination guy

For my never finishing side projects I am too; I enjoy my weekends tinkering on the 'final database' system I have been building in CL for over a decade and will probably never really 'finish'. But to make money, I launch things fast and promote them; AI makes that far easier.

Especially for parts like fronted that I despise; I find 0 pleasure in working with css magic that even seasoned frontenders have to try/fail in a loop to create. I let Sonnet just struggle until it's good enough instead of me having to do that annoying chore; then I ask Aider to attach it to the backend and done.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#273

Post by SoftTalker » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:37 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #265

NortySpock wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my laundry app (that I must use) takes minutes to load Do they have a place to mail your complaints? Who forces you to use the app? Annoy them. Annoy their boss. Write a flier pointing out how long it takes to use the app and leave those fliers in every laundry room you visit (Someone checks on those machines, right?). Heck, send an organization-wide email pointing out this problem. (CC your mayor, council-member,…

>Do they have a place to mail your complaints? Who forces you to use the app? Presumably the building he lives in contracted out laundry service to some third party company, which is in charge of the machines and therefore shitty app. In this situation there really isn't any real choice to vote with your wallet. They can tell you to pound sand and there's nothing you can do. Your only real option is to move out. Mayb…

Most landlords are not complete assholes. They want to do what is reasonable to keep their tenants happy. It's much easier to re-sign a happy tenant than to have to turn over an apartment and spend time and money marketing it and possibly have it vacant for a while. If all the tenants hate the laundry app and let the landlord know (politely, with a list of machines that don't work, dates/times, etc), most likely it will have an effect.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#274

Post by llIIllIIllIIl » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:39 AM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #271

ipaddr wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers of the past worked towards the title of webmaster. A webmaster can manage a server, write the code and also be a graphic artist. Developers want to do it all. What has changed is micromanaging of daily standup which reshapes work into neat packages for conversation but kills a non linear flow and limits exploration making things exactly as requested instead of what could be better.

I never thought of a webmaster as meaning that. When I think of webmaster I think of a person who updates the content on a website using a CMS of some sort. Maybe they know a bit of HTML and CSS, how to copy assets to the web server, that sort of thing. But they are not sysadmins or programmers in the conventional sense. Maybe it just varies by employer.

That’s just a more junior mastery of a true webmaster.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#275

Post by chrismarlow9 » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:40 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #258

ang_cire wrote: post #90

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

Developers of the past worked towards the title of webmaster. A webmaster can manage a server, write the code and also be a graphic artist. Developers want to do it all. What has changed is micromanaging of daily standup which reshapes work into neat packages for conversation but kills a non linear flow and limits exploration making things exactly as requested instead of what could be better.

What has also changed in my opinion is the vast landscape of tooling and frameworks at every level of the stack.

We now have containers that run in VMs that run on physical servers. And languages built on top of JavaScript and backed by Shadow Dom and blah blah. Now sure I could easily skip all that and stick a static page on a cdn that points to a lambda and call it a day. But the layers are still there.

I'm afraid only more of this is coming with AI in full swing and fully expect a larger scale internet outage to happen at some point that will be the result of a subtle bug in all this complexity that no single person can fix because AI wrote it.

There's too much stuff in the stack. Can we stop adding and remove some of it?

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#276

Post by neom » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:51 AM UTC

trashtester wrote: post #144

ang_cire wrote: post #90

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

They're realizing that 10x (+) developers exist, but think they can hire them at 1x developer salaries. Btw, they key skill you're leaving out, is to understand the business your company is in. If you can couple even moderate developer ability with a good understanding of business objectives, you may stay relevant even while some of the pure developers are replaced by AI.

Biz side of the house here: for sure, it's always been the way that really what you're "weeding in" is the IC's who are skilled and aware. (and:If I had to do layoffs, my stack rank would be smack dab in here also, btw)

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#277

Post by overrun11 » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:51 AM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #268

matrix2003 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary I think it's worth adding here that US developers can have a much higher burden for things like health insurance. My child broke his arm this year, and we hit our very high deductible. I would like to see numbers factoring in things like public transportation, health insurance, etc., because I personally feel like EU vs US developers are a lot closer…

Your high deductible should have been covered by an HSA. In fact AFAIK it's required that you have one if you are on a high deductible plan.

Sure but HSA is often your own money that you contributed

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#278

Post by neom » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:56 AM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #258

ang_cire wrote: post #90

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

Developers of the past worked towards the title of webmaster. A webmaster can manage a server, write the code and also be a graphic artist. Developers want to do it all. What has changed is micromanaging of daily standup which reshapes work into neat packages for conversation but kills a non linear flow and limits exploration making things exactly as requested instead of what could be better.

This comment had me laughing pretty hard, and thanks for making me feel old. Anyway, I guess I'm a "webmaster" in theory even tho I've not worked on web since early 2000s, lamp stack handy++ tho. made me laugh because: was a Supabase meetup recently and some kid told me he was full stack, but he can't ssh into a server? I'm supa confused what fullstack means these days.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#279

Post by overrun11 » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 2:56 AM UTC

matrix2003 wrote: post #182

trashtester wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did ML at insurance companies and got branded as an insurance ML guy. If you're an "ML insurance guy" outside of the US, it may be quite lucrative compared to other developers. It's really only in the US (and maybe China) that pure developers are demanding $200k+ salaries. In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary, and if you can provide value directly to the business, it will add a lot to…

> In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary I think it's worth adding here that US developers can have a much higher burden for things like health insurance. My child broke his arm this year, and we hit our very high deductible. I would like to see numbers factoring in things like public transportation, health insurance, etc., because I personally feel like EU vs US developers are a lot closer…

US big tech devs typically make 3x+ what the Euro equivalent does. A 4500 deductible isn't really materially relevant. I (a US dev) have a high deductible plan but my employer contributes substantially to it anyway.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#280

Post by mlinhares » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 3:11 AM UTC

trashtester wrote: post #178

extr wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because it's often a suboptimal career move from an individual perspective. By branding yourself as a "FinTech Developer" or whatever instead of just a "Developer" you're narrowing your possible job options for questionable benefit in terms of TC and skills growth. This isn't always the case and of course if you spend 20 years in one domain maybe you can brand yourself as an expert there and pull high $/hr consu…

> I did ML at insurance companies and got branded as an insurance ML guy. If you're an "ML insurance guy" outside of the US, it may be quite lucrative compared to other developers. It's really only in the US (and maybe China) that pure developers are demanding $200k+ salaries. In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary, and if you can provide value directly to the business, it will add a lot to…

> rather than trying to compete with 25-year-olds with a strong STEM background, but poor real-life experience.

I have never seen this happen. All the new grads I've ever worked with (from Ivy league schools as well) are pretty much incapable of doing anything without a lot of handholding, they lack so much of everything, experience, context, business knowledge, political awareness, technical knowledge (I still can't believe "designing data intensive applications" isn't a required read in college for people that want big tech jobs) and even the STEM stuff (if they're so good why do i have to explain why we don't use averages?).

Which is fine, they are new to the market, so they need to be educated. Other than CRUD apps, i doubt these people can do anything complex without supervision, we're not even in the same league to compete with each other.