While the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough does hold some truth, I'm much more compelled to cite the old "People quit managers, not jobs" saying.
Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
141–150 of 294 posts
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#142Hiring people is like gambling for companies, as in most tech companies hire some person on the off chance they're a 10x developer, though expect them to be a 1.5x one on average. Even if you're a 2x developer, you haven't lived up to the hypothetical 10x ideal to your employer, so they aren't willing to put in the extra money and effort to convince you to stay, there's more incentive to put that money into hiring th…
Frankly, this 10x dev myth should just die. There are only at most 2x developers, and most ordinary people are just below the 1x factor.
Like other idioms in the English language, it's not a mathematically accurate statement, but it persistents. Like a ten foot pole or a dime a dozen.
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleasant. That depends on your co-workers. It may be more like getting a divorce from an abusive spouse.
Either way, unpleasant.
How so? Getting out of a bad marriage isn't unpleasant at all. A bit traumatic perhaps, but that's like going through the trauma of major surgery so you can have your badly broken leg bolted together so you don't have to get an amputation or die of infection. The feeling of freedom and peace you get after getting out is worth the trauma of divorce.
Same goes for getting out of a shitty job with bad coworkers or a bad boss.
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
Money isn’t everything, but the math behind retirement saving is compelling. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
Right but what if you enjoy your job and don’t want to retire?
Work is more enjoyable when you don't have to do it for money
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you think the UK could do to make the situation better aside from increasing pay? Or is that the only issue?
UK companies do not respect software engineers or reward them properly (not even stock), even interns in other places get paid 5x more than a senior engineer in the UK. There is a also a huge cost of living issue in the UK which makes it dead on arrival for any software engineering job in the UK. I could say there should be more VC funding in the UK for startups but I don't think this would help either due to the abo…
> UK companies do not respect software engineers or reward them properly (not even stock), even interns in other places get paid 5x more than a senior engineer in the UK.
In monetary terms this is not true. A good software engineer can make 150-200K in the UK without going into finance or FAANG.
In real terms you are better off making 50-80K in Germany, Spain, France, Poland, Italy, etc…, especially if you have children and don’t own property.
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
" Here’s hoping you’re lucky enough to live until then. "? The median lifespan is over 80 and developers are paid above the median, often by quite a bit. It's far, far more likely in your 50s that you'll be staring down the barrel of a layoff + industry downturn and cursing yourself for the money spent on your trip across Europe and other frivolities in your 30s.
If you spent a ton of money to hike across Europe, you've done something terribly wrong. I spent a month traveling across Europe by train a few years ago, and it was fairly cheap, certainly FAR less money than I would have spent on any vacation in the US. Taking a vacation (any vacation) in the US is a frivolity, even if you live in the US. If you could theoretically rent out your home in the US while you're gone (fo…
This is only tangentially aligned, but I live in Canada and find the same equation in the winter. I travel south, to a low-cost area, and get to shut down the heat in my house for 4 months. The result is a $2000 savings over those months on heating costs.
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here’s hoping you’re lucky enough to live until then. Don’t forget to live in the meantime. It’s a lot easier to hike across Europe in your 30s than in your 50s.
" Here’s hoping you’re lucky enough to live until then. "? The median lifespan is over 80 and developers are paid above the median, often by quite a bit. It's far, far more likely in your 50s that you'll be staring down the barrel of a layoff + industry downturn and cursing yourself for the money spent on your trip across Europe and other frivolities in your 30s.
In my 30s my single driving goal was to pay off my mortgage and be debt free (I came to home ownership late).
Thanks to this industry, I got there at 42.
I’m sure as shit not going back to the treadmill, for what?
So I am taking my young family on trips and experiences I never had growing up (visiting other countries, camping, hiking, etc.), and working on the health I neglected in my 30s.
Also being more assertive at work and not sacrificing like I used to.
Because of this, I’m probably not going to have a wealthy retirement, but I have a lot of peace of mind knowing we could keep the family afloat working minimum wage jobs, with the house paid off and no debts.
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#148As a regular reader of Rachelbythebay - I agree with the sentiment of a lot of other posters here, it's not the money that makes people quit.
A classic story here is the "Sodas are no longer free" one: https://steveblank.com/2009/12/21/the-elves-leave-middle-ear...
The total cost of free sodas for engineers is probably small compared to their salaries, and for the individual engineer, the new $0.50 per soda cost is probably negligible compared to their salary. But moving from free (as in free soda) to non-free signals a culture change, and so the best engineers started updating their CVs.
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#149Hiring people is like gambling for companies, as in most tech companies hire some person on the off chance they're a 10x developer, though expect them to be a 1.5x one on average. Even if you're a 2x developer, you haven't lived up to the hypothetical 10x ideal to your employer, so they aren't willing to put in the extra money and effort to convince you to stay, there's more incentive to put that money into hiring th…
Frankly, this 10x dev myth should just die. There are only at most 2x developers, and most ordinary people are just below the 1x factor.
"Facts and Fallacies of Software Engineering" cited research indicating it can be as high as 28x.
To get that number, you have to take into consideration terrible devs who are negative multipliers.
I.e. the scale is not 1x - 10x. It's more like -10x - 10x.
I've personally experienced development projects where there was easily a -5x - 5x difference between the least and most productive. I've seen productivity improve when devs have been removed from a project.
Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?
#150I've heard the argument that an engineer who wants to go should be let go. They won't be motivated anymore even if you pay them more to stay. Not sure if that's valid.
Sometimes people just need more money
In the UK, having a family often results in one partner quiting work because they earn less after tax than the cost of daycare.
Likewise interest rates on mortgages (which aren't fixed long term in the UK, unlike the US) have tripled and inflation has risen 20-25% over the last 3 years
Adopting this policy of "fire em if they ask for more" is so evil.