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Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

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Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#21

Post by hintymad »

Amazon used to have an internal Slack channel that allowed employees to share their total compensations anonymously. Thousands of people shared and the numbers were eye opening. Basically, if one was not a star and got consistently promoted every two or three years, she would not get compensated at market price. As a result, an L6 who stayed in the company for years often got lower total compensation than an L5 new hire who was actually an L4 before jumping to Amazon.

Note: No L7 or above shared, or so as I knew. That said, like any large company, resources tend to concentrate to the top. L8 and plus were still compensated really well, but L7 were so so because L8 became the new L7 after waves of rapid promotions inside Amazon.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#22

Post by greenthrow »

BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

Anecdotally in multiple decades of jobs every single time I left it was for money. Sometimes as much as a 50% increase.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#23

Post by yen223 »

colesantiago wrote: post #3

It is simple. Because they have no money. For startups, they want engineers to take a pay cut to work 996-like hours. Especially in the UK, where there is a running joke where companies complain about a “skills shortage” when in reality companies cannot find engineers at top universities that want to take a pay cut and work for less pay.

The no-money argument is less convincing to me, because I see this happen in well-financed companies.

A very common scenario is that some person leaves, and is replaced by a new person who ends up getting paid more for doing the same role. The old person was on an old outdated rate and the new person is on a new corrected salary (that usually is higher)

I suspect it's inertia. Companies don't make the effort to update old rates to match new market rates, because that requires active effort on part of the company.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#24

Post by alberth »

BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

> included frustrations with management

Which I presume this is another way to say “your direct boss”.

Because 99% of an employees view of a company, and opinions about their employer, is actually just a reflection of their like/dislike of their direct boss.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#25

Post by steelframe »

BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

You should try leaving a company for money sometime. Financial independence really is life-changing, and you can get there surprisingly quickly in the tech industry by putting yourself on the market more often.

Anecdotally, at my current company nearly everyone I know who left did so within a few months of hitting the 4-year cliff on their signing equity. I've left 3 companies in my career primarily because the next company doubled my comp. I've only left 1 company for reasons other than pay.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#26

Post by _yb2s »

yieldcrv wrote: post #14
BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

> It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with management. and here I am thinking this was a meme by HR myself and all my competition leave jobs due to - and for - money. if you're sticking around to stay in graces of your comfortable management you are contributing to the wage gap for your respective gender in the wrong direction.

A job with good management and a good work environment is hard to find… that is worth lower pay to a lot of people.

I’m a person with tech skills in academia… myself and most of my coworkers and colleagues could make at least 2x in industry yet we’re still here because we like the job better. I have however lost a lot of colleagues.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#27

Post by notepad0x90 »

BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

HR has a saying "employees don't leave jobs, they leave managers".

Pay has motivated me to look for other jobs, but only after I was already worn out and frustrated with my current job. Switching jobs isn't like getting a new car or moving to a new apartment. It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleasant.

If the pay is bad enough, I like to think I would leave anyways. But I think most people are given better reasons to leave their jobs and onto greener pastures.

I wonder if LLMs would do a better job as managers, if they can make up for cognitive biases in humans. Managers treat new employees with lesser experience, with higher regard and respect than existing employees with longer experience that remained at that company for a long time. Switching jobs is also the best way to get a raise, due to managers being heavily biased towards obtaining new hires. On one hand, they're supposed to keep good performers, but on the other hand they're supposed to keep talent flowing in. Employees should then also try to keep their jobs best they can, while also searching for better jobs and not getting more attached to their employer than their employer is to them?

Humans in general are too biased and faulty in their thinking. Sure, LLMs hallucinate and propagate existing bias in society, but at least they can maybe (in the future) evaluate employees and form more objective opinions towards existing staff and new hires? sounds better than humans winging it based on "vibes"?

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#29

Post by ljlolel »

notepad0x90 wrote: post #27
BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

HR has a saying "employees don't leave jobs, they leave managers". Pay has motivated me to look for other jobs, but only after I was already worn out and frustrated with my current job. Switching jobs isn't like getting a new car or moving to a new apartment. It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleas…

Still traumatic with remote?

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#30

Post by wsc981 »

yieldcrv wrote: post #14
BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

> It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with management. and here I am thinking this was a meme by HR myself and all my competition leave jobs due to - and for - money. if you're sticking around to stay in graces of your comfortable management you are contributing to the wage gap for your respective gender in the wrong direction.

For me it's the same. I'd be ok if management is crappy, but the pay is good. I actually left a company this year, because I was looking for (what I thought) was a very reasonable raise, but the company made negotiations very hard and annoying:

- first meeting with direct manager: I was offered a very meager immediate increase and offered a "personal improvement plan" for proper raise end of the year (I declined - I hate this nonsense and I know I'm already a senior, no need to work towards "senior").

- then 2 times a meeting was planned with the CEO, but CEO wouldn't show up. He stated both times something came up, apparently more important.

When I announced my decision to leave, at that point suddenly more was possible. I could get the raise I wanted, CEO excused himself for his behavior, etc... But at that point, too much harm was done, from my point of view.

I would have stayed easily 1 or 2 more years if the pay was decent and I didn't have to deal with the nonsense for salary negotiations.

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