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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. Libraries don't make copies. They lend you the actual books. Copyright is literally right to copy. Scanning the book and doing something with, such as lending it forward, is copying. (The covid thing strengthens the case of the book guys - the CDL suddenly let anyone get anything because Archive decided to change the rules unilaterally)

Except that's the whole point of the CDL compromise , that only one person can borrow the book at a time.

There is no CDL compromise clause in the Copyright Act.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#682
sigh Entirely avoidable, entirely predictable. It's time to talk about what happens next.

The Internet Archive must cost a fortune to run. There's no way they're going to get enough donation money if they only provide old website archives. Their "online library of everything" gambit was an attempt to boost their donations by attracting a wider audience.

They'll have to diminish the capabilities of the wayback machine in some way. I think they'll replace domain-based search with some kind of LLM-based conversational frontend, grabbing some funding from OpenAI or someone in the process.

It's too bad. I've been scraping the wayback machine ever since they did this stupid "pandemic library" and I noticed that they were allowing full movie and game rips with zero moderation. I'd like to have gotten a more complete archive, but what I have now is pretty good for my own uses. If you did the same, good job. If you didn't, well, I did warn you over and over ( https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... )

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about copyright, but the fact is that the IA never had a chance and we knew it years ago. The top comment on HN a week after their launch of the EL is critical [0], right at the moment when HN would be most expected to rally to their defense. By the time the lawsuit was actually starting to take shape most commenters had become very concerned for the fate of the IA [1]. This is on a forum that reliab…

Ditto. Worth also noting is that IA lost the case by summary judgement. This usually means that the legal matter was so clear that the judge didn't even see a reason to start a trial. This judgement has now been confirmed on appeal. Just about any lawyer could have probably told them this was the inevitable outcome had they listened. I personally have donated previously to IA but now it frankly disgusts me that the p…

> it frankly disgusts me that the project's current management has for the last few years had its focus on fighting windmills in court instead of their core mission - preserving our digital history.

Hi, Mek here (speaking as myself). Disclosure that I run OpenLibrary.org at the Internet Archive. I'm sad to hear you're disappointed with how things are going. I share your frustration.

I wanted to join in and +1 one of your comments: the importance of preserving our digital history. Preservation is a core mission of the Internet Archive and central to the tagline, "Universal Access to All Knowledge".

At the end of the day, the reason to preserve cultural heritage is so that it can be made accessible: Eventually. In ways that serve people with special accessibility needs who are otherwise left behind. In formats and environments capable of playing back materials that no longer have available runtimes. With affordances that make these materials useful and relevant to modern audiences.

An important reflection is that a key role of archives and libraries is to preserve cultural heritage by building inclusive, diverse collections, which span topics and times. For decades, libraries pursued this goal by purchasing physical books and, over time, growing and preserving collections of materials that serve their patrons. Not just bestsellers. Weird, obscure, rare research materials about rollercoasters, genealogy, banned books, stories from lost voices, government records.

The shift of publishing to digital [especially how it's done] fundamentally affects how [of if] material may be archived or accessed. It's not enough to assert the importance of preserving culture. One must actively advocate for a future where media can be archived. As Danny suggests (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41454990), this is something the Internet Archive has been acting on since its inception.

What we're seeing today is a shift to digital, designed and led by publishers who are engineering a landscape with new rules where libraries can't own digitally accessible books. Libraries are being offered no choice, no path forward, but to lease (over and over) prohibitively expensive, fixed pool of books, that disappear after the lease period is up. This means libraries have ostensibly lost their ability (first sale doctrine rights) to own, grow, and preserve a collection of books over time... A fundamental ecosystem change that threatens the very function of preservation that you and I so strongly value. Preservation necessitates the ability to preserve. Preservation is a fight for the future and I believe a preservable future where libraries are allowed to own digitally accessible collections of books is a future worth fighting for.

That doesn't mean we should only be looking into the future. Looking at today, the only permanent collections libraries do / can own and preserve are physical. So what other question is there besides: how can libraries make the materials they rightfully own, preserve, and are permitted to lend accessible to a digital society? How may libraries make the digital jump to help millions of physical books enter public discourse, which takes place ostensibly online?

In my opinion, this is the discussion we're having. The Internet Archive continues to preserve millions of documents of all sorts: websites, radio, tv, books, scholarly articles, microfilm, software, etc. A very small team of staff are doing the best job possible to make sure that, not only does our cultural heritage get archived, but that in the future, archives and libraries have the right to exist, be useful, and that there are materials archives are permitted to preserve; that important research resources are made accessible to the public -- especially those who have traditionally been left behind. Someone needs to fight for the future that lets us continue preserving the past.

I'm personally very open to your suggestions on how the Open Library can improve and appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#685

Internet Archive response blog post: https://blog.archive.org/2024/09/04/internet-archive-respond...

I love IA but I won't sign their petition. If I wrote a book and it is freely distributed by IA I would be pissed too. There is no argument here.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those libraries are subject to publisher's whims and prices in ways that they never were for paper books.

I have never understood why a digital good isn't subject to the same protections as the physical one. Honestly, this sort of behavior only encourages piracy. Oh, I don't have the same rights if I buy your ebook? Ok then, I guess I won't.

Don't they have the same protections?

I think it's perfectly fine to download an ebook and mail somebody your harddrive for them to read it no?

I'm not sure it's legal for you to photocopy a physical book and mail them those photocopies even if you burn your book.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#687
post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stuff they voluntarily censored includes a Reuters exposé about a software startup hacking US journalists for overseas dictator clients. https://web.archive.org/web/20240000000000*/https://www.reut... ( "This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine." ) https://archive.is/B1T2P#selection-2151.0-2155.234 ( "A Reuters Special Report | How an Indian startup hacked the world" ) https://www.politico.com/news/mag…

I'm having a hard time aligning "voluntarily" with "in compliance with a court order" in my mind.

IA was not served with a court order; Reuters was (in India).

(It would still be voluntary even if IA had been ordered to do something in India, because as is the topic of the thread, IA is a US-based nonprofit under the jurisdiction of US courts).

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of this sounds nice, but also ignores the details of the lost court case. When I learned more about the actual case details it really seemed like a strange hill to die on for the IA, and it was nearly inevitable they would lose. I think there was a very sensible middle ground the IA could have chosen to avoid it all while still sticking to their core mission.

I will claim that IA is an overly-sensible org because they fought this in court. That about show a healthy respect to the law, middlemen and authors to argue in the presence of a judge. For Publishers and middlemen, this is a hollow victory. Murky water. Say for instance, I buy a book. I make a scanned copy and lend out the original. The person who borrowed the book, makes a copy and sends it back. I do this for 1 m…

Copying some parts of the book for educational purposes is allowed within fair use. Copying entire works isn't considered fair use.

A teacher buys a book which is a collection of worksheets. The teacher photocopies some worksheets out of the book to use in a non-profit educational environment. This is entirely fair use.

A teacher buys a copy of a textbook, photocopies the entire textbook, and hands it out to the class, that is not fair use because it is the entirety of the work.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never understood why a digital good isn't subject to the same protections as the physical one. Honestly, this sort of behavior only encourages piracy. Oh, I don't have the same rights if I buy your ebook? Ok then, I guess I won't.

Don't they have the same protections? I think it's perfectly fine to download an ebook and mail somebody your harddrive for them to read it no? I'm not sure it's legal for you to photocopy a physical book and mail them those photocopies even if you burn your book.

You typically can't just mail a hard drive: you have to share access to the account that was used to purchase the ebook.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#690
post #445

If I can relate this to movies [1], it might be illuminating: Watching a movie, you normally get a "home viewing" license. That does not give you the right to show it at your business (even if you don't charge money and only 10 people come). There's also a Public Performance Rights (PPR) license, and I always had to get PPR's because Google lawyers would shut us down otherwise. PPR costs considerably more than a home…

there is no such thing as a 'home viewing license'; you don't know the basics of us copyright law, despite having negotiated public performance rights licenses. you need a license from the copyright holder (or a fair use defense) when, and only when, you are doing one of the things reserved to the copyright holder under 17 usc §106 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106 . specifically, 17 usc §106(4) is publi…

You both put 'home viewing' in quotes. Clearly you both know that's not actually a thing so this part: "you don't know the basics of us copyright law" is uncalled for.
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