The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive • Hacker News Board

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#621

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:04 PM UTC

dannyobrien wrote: post #551

ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

I disagree with this assessment on many levels, but I think the most important challenge I can make is to the idea that Brewster Kahle is a rogue actor, who in some sense mis-interpreted the mission and strategy of the Internet Archive. For those of you who are just learning that name from this lawsuit, here's his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Kahle Kahle founded the Archive in the nineties,…

Agreed, if anything the mistake of CDL was legitimizing DRM and thereby the current IP rules in the first place.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#622

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:05 PM UTC

sumeno wrote: post #586

dannyobrien wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this assessment on many levels, but I think the most important challenge I can make is to the idea that Brewster Kahle is a rogue actor, who in some sense mis-interpreted the mission and strategy of the Internet Archive. For those of you who are just learning that name from this lawsuit, here's his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Kahle Kahle founded the Archive in the nineties,…

> Why did only Kahle do it, and why was it only Kahle coming up with CDL as an idea to prevent the death of first sale, of lending a book, of the idea of a free library in a digital future? Lots of libraries do free digital lending of ebooks in a legal way and have done so for a long time

Those libraries are subject to publisher's whims and prices in ways that they never were for paper books.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#623

Post by chaostheory » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:06 PM UTC

dannyobrien wrote: post #551

ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

I disagree with this assessment on many levels, but I think the most important challenge I can make is to the idea that Brewster Kahle is a rogue actor, who in some sense mis-interpreted the mission and strategy of the Internet Archive. For those of you who are just learning that name from this lawsuit, here's his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Kahle Kahle founded the Archive in the nineties,…

Neither you or ilamont do a good job at explaining why Kahle is wrong or right in this particular case.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#624

Post by jonhohle » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:07 PM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #415

codedokode wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With physical books the library doesn't need to pay anything to lend it; with digital books it has to pay for every view. Why is it so? Shouldn't the buyers of digital books have the same rights, i.e. the right to re-sell or lend it? As for authors, nothing changes here: libraries lent their physical books without paying before.

The difference between physical books and digital books is apparently wear https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41452031

Spouse of a former librarian here. Books are circulated on average 25-30 times before they need to be replaced or removed due to wear.

While I understand the plight of publishers, I also think digital rights favor them too much, atm.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#625

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:07 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #607

pk-protect-ai wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries".

>And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries" No, it's a different situation. In contrast, the government public libraries legitimately purchased ebook licenses (aka "renting") from the publishers and then "loaned" out a limited # of simultaneous copies in a legal manner. The book publishers approved this arrangement. The Internet Archive didn't do that. Instead, they "lo…

And you don't think that publishers having to be involved with digital lending is a problem? Libraries don't have to seek permission to lend paper books and they are not responsible for ensuring that those books aren't copied. Same should apply to the digital world.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#626

Post by bawolff » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:09 PM UTC

immibis wrote: post #499

bawolff wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The correct way is to change laws is to lobby your elected representitive. Blatently breaking them generally doesn't work. It can when the laws are morally repungent, but the majority of the population are never going to find copyright law repungant the same way society found, say segregation, repungent. Copyright law may suck. The IA's actions were an extremely silly way to fight it, really didn't help anybody, and…

Do you really think the political system is functional?

All things are relative. I think its more functional than just assuming that a judge is going to whole-heartedly set aside the law.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#627

Post by Springtime » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:11 PM UTC

alexhektor wrote: post #573

lolinder wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you about copyright, but the fact is that the IA never had a chance and we knew it years ago. The top comment on HN a week after their launch of the EL is critical [0], right at the moment when HN would be most expected to rally to their defense. By the time the lawsuit was actually starting to take shape most commenters had become very concerned for the fate of the IA [1]. This is on a forum that reliab…

outside of the content of of the comment, top comment doesn't necessarily mean the most held opinion. Especially if a comment is thoughtfully written, contains multiple aspects and might just get upvotes for reasonably looking at both sides like in this thread. Being thoughtful, mindful, respecting and trying to not see something in black and white can get upvotes just for being like that. And that's just one tiny as…

I'd add too that often on such sites the range of submitted subjects are broad enough that those voting don't necessarily have domain familiarity or expertise, so when a comment reads like it has a solid argument readers may upvote it to test the robustness of its premise by way of seeing if others make more compelling counter-arguments or strengthen/agree with it.

Ie: the voters themselves may not hold any personal opinion on the matter.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#628

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:12 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #598

vesinisa wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not what this case was about. Throughout the trial they have been allowed to provide continued digital access to the scanned books, granted they operate like a library (each borrowed book is backed by a physical copy.) The case was launched when during the Covid-19 pandemic they removed the limitations under the veil of "National Emergency Library": https://blog.archive.org/2020/03/30/internet-archive-resp…

And their poor implementation of CDL (based on the findings they were often missing the controlled part), has now set a precedence that will make a real CDL case that much harder. Grandstanding appears to have been more important than enacting change.

Good. Hopefully good hearted folks like the ones running IA will now see the error in engaging in DRM and drop the controlled part entirely. Yes that means they will have to take steps to insulate themselves from unjust laws.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#629

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:14 PM UTC

Nevermark wrote: post #506

rakoo wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of having digital preservation if noone can read the archives ? Digital access make sense, it's the logical conclusion to what IA does

Both copyright protection and fair use exceptions have valid but contradictory “logical conclusions” that require practical considerations, wisdom and negotiated compromise to balance. Anyone going all in on either side is not on the side of maximizing access, which legitimately depends on maximizing the production of things to access. Anyone making a crusade of only one side, without collaborating with the other, wi…

Not really. We ha an abundance of creation long before copyright.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#630

Post by polytely » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:16 PM UTC

Atreiden wrote: post #11

> This appeal presents the following question: Is it “fair use” for a nonprofit organization to scan copyright-protected print books in their entirety, and distribute those digital copies online, in full, for free, subject to a one-to-one owned-to-loaned ratio between its print copies and the digital copies it makes available at any given time, all without authorization from the copyright-holding publishers or author…

Illegal archiving seems to be the only way forward, for example making a personal archive you can share with family and friends, and supporting bigger efforts like library genesis and anna's archive are the only way we can ensure that stuff actually is still available in a 100 years. fuck the copyright lobby.