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Mondragon as the new city-state

elysian.press

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Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#301

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #282
WalterBright wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? The trouble with calling free markets folly is they are enormously successful, in every place and time where they have been tried. The trouble with central economic planning is it always does badly. BTW, one of the functions of government in a free market is to regulate the externalities - costs of doing busin…

The paradox of maintaining free markets is that you often need state power to ensure competition is being done fairly. That means regulations, and intervention from time to time. That’s at least the ordoliberal line in Germany, at least, the Freiburg school. They seem to have built a quite successful postwar economy there. Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fe…

That is not a paradox. A free market presumes the existence of a government to protect rights and enforce contracts.

> Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fetishistic, with liberty.

Question it all you like!

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#302

Post by WalterBright »

aguaviva wrote: post #300
nec4b wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? You shouldn't have a problem demonstrating this then? It's easy to enumerate all failed central planned economies, there really never was one that succeeded. Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets.

Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets. The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future. Though mortality rates seem not to have risen (and may in fact declined) in the U.S. during the…

> The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future.

Are there any sustainable socialist economies by any metric?

> European colonial project

Colonialism is not free market.

> also very much a direct result of "too much free markets"

Again, communist countries are the most polluted ones. The reason is straightforward - their economies produced so little, they couldn't afford environmental protection costs.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#303

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #299
nec4b wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are the events you listed a consequence of too much free markets? You just proved my point with your examples. Collapse of the Soviet Union was literally a direct consequence of failed central planing. It didn't work that is way it collapsed, hence crash in standard of living. Pyramid schemes were also very popular in the eastern European countries before the fall of communism as well.

And what replaced central planning in those countries, and proved unable to stop the crash?

The various Soviet republics each tried differing approaches. The most free market one was Poland's, and Poland had the most success with it.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#304

Post by cholantesh »

darby_nine wrote: post #250
cholantesh wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be because since 2019 and the withdrawal of the US military presence in NE Syria, the relative prosperity of Rojava has plummeted. This draws into question exactly how 'autonomous' said autonomous zone was.

> This draws into question exactly how 'autonomous' said autonomous zone was. It seems like you're conflating sovereignty with economic dependence, which are two distinct concepts—being entirely economic independent seems highly geographically dependent. Few regions in the world are lucky enough to even have this option. For instance, you can be economically dependent on neighbors but still locally determine who runs…

Sure, but Rojava is very specifically cited by anarchists and left-libertarians in the west as an example of a principality that's self-sustaining and capable of existing apart from global capitalism. Until 2018, evidence suggested this was true. In fact, their economy, ie, the material basis upon which their society exists (which IMO suggests that there isn't a meaningful distinction here), appears to have been scaffolded by its status as a client of the US. None of this is really true of Afghanistan. It's not cast as some kind of role model, and it has no illusions of building a successor society.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#305

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #284
WalterBright wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are so many interesting things to learn that are reality (like reading history books), why waste the precious remaining few years of my life reading books promoting nonsense? I read historical accounts about the Kennedy assassination, but don't waste my time on the conspiracy theory books. Nor do I bother with treatises on ancient aliens or UFOs. Or books on astrology, kirlian photography, ESP, flat earth, reli…

If you’ve spent your entire life building an identity around opposing something, the least you can do is try to understand it.

I understand it well enough by reading history books on what happened in them. Have you ventured out of academic theories and read any histories of Marxist attempts?

Why should I waste time on a theory that has been proven false every time it was tried?

It's up to you to justify it, not me.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#306

Post by Apocryphon »

WalterBright wrote: post #305
Apocryphon wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’ve spent your entire life building an identity around opposing something, the least you can do is try to understand it.

I understand it well enough by reading history books on what happened in them. Have you ventured out of academic theories and read any histories of Marxist attempts? Why should I waste time on a theory that has been proven false every time it was tried? It's up to you to justify it, not me.

I'm not a Marxist so I have no interest in justifying their theories. However, if I made my personal brand all about being what a staunch anti-Marxist I am, I would hazard an effort to try to understand their position, if for nothing else but to understand why so many others have bought into it, and to be a more effective opponent against it.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#307

Post by Apocryphon »

WalterBright wrote: post #301
Apocryphon wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paradox of maintaining free markets is that you often need state power to ensure competition is being done fairly. That means regulations, and intervention from time to time. That’s at least the ordoliberal line in Germany, at least, the Freiburg school. They seem to have built a quite successful postwar economy there. Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fe…

That is not a paradox. A free market presumes the existence of a government to protect rights and enforce contracts. > Endorsing free markets does not have to equate with an unquestioning obsession, bordering on fetishistic, with liberty. Question it all you like!

I don't question it. We are agreement that a strong hand is necessary to reduce externalities that arise in the course of commerce; we are simply quibbling about what is within that purview.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#308

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #286
WalterBright wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they did. Anything else? Is your car a Soviet made car? How about your clothes? Computers? Furniture? Books? Anything in your dwelling? Back in the heyday(!) of the USSR, tourists would routinely fill their luggage with blue jeans to sell on the black market there.

The Soviet Union was notoriously poor at prioritizing consumer goods, it’s probably one of the reasons for their downfall. One must admit though that both thym and the PRC have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity. I’m not sure that could’ve been achievable counterfactually, and as we saw with the sudden free market capture of post-Soviet Russia in the ‘90s,…

Digital watches of far greater accuracy are available in a blister pack on a peg in the supermarket for $5.

When the Red Army invaded Germany, the number 1 looted object was wristwatches. Soldiers would have a row of them affixed to their forearms. In multiple books I've read, they were always looking for wristwatches.

My father (B-17 crew) was issued a wristwatch, but I've been unable to find it among his stuff. Timekeeping was essential for coordinated military operations.

> have achieved something in uplifting backwards feudal empires towards something resembling modernity

The USSR was described as 3rd world country with a 1st world military. The PRC launched their economy by abandoning Marxism and embracing free markets. Cuba is a mess as it still tries to hang on to Marxism.

I did read the Soviet watch article when it was here - most interesting!

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#309

Post by WalterBright »

harwoodjp wrote: post #287
WalterBright wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with your definition is the violence necessary to steal the means of production so you can set it up for your workers. A totalitarian government is required to do that. The workers will be severely constrained in what they can do - like set up their own businesses. You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%. Freedom means not being dictated to by the mob.

> violence necessary to steal the means of production You could argue that private property is theft, necessarily enforced by a repressive state, and reappropriation is justice. The general strike is non-violent (until the police arrive). > You also conflation democracy with freedom. 49% gets subjugated by the other 51%. The interesting part about decentralization is that it somewhat relieves this problem. Federation…

> You could argue that private property is theft [...]

You could, but it wouldn't be convincing. It's a bit hard to convince me that things I bought or made I actually stole. Are you going to argue that if I hire someone to build a patio, I actually stole it from him?

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#310

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #285
WalterBright wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I missed the railroads, steel industries, chip manufacturers, iphones, etc. that were looted from those people? BTW, studies of the bones of pre-Columbian Indians shows they worked hard and suffered from periodic famines, as well as a lot of violence.

Therein lies the commonality between all economic systems: where there are people, there is the taking. Industries tend to require raw materials, which many times are located in or around land.

Free markets are not built around taking. They are built around exchanging.
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