Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mondragon as the new city-state

elysian.press

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 372 posts

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#271

Post by Apocryphon »

WalterBright wrote: post #139
jmyeet wrote: post #4

There is no value without labor. This was recognized by everyone from Karl Marx to Abraham Lincoln to Adam Smith. Smith even conceded that profit was impossible if workers retain their surplus value, which is exactly the point. I bring this up because that's what capitalism is: draining the surplus labor value from workers to the capital-owning class. In feudalism, the artistocracy and th emonarchy extracted that val…

> There is no value without labor. True, but there is also no value without investment and risk. Marx's failure was ignoring the other two ingredients. Marxism is building a road with hundreds of laborers with shovels. Capitalism is one guy with a bulldozer. P.S. Cuba has no riches to steal.

Cuba’s riches are Florida’s electoral votes, often hinging upon the sentiment of the exiles in Miami-Dade County. Plus, their whole cigar thing.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#272

Post by nickpinkston »

calf wrote: post #267
nickpinkston wrote: post #236

I've studied and visited Mondragon before, and hosted their students at my company. It's very cool, but I'm unsure how replicable the model really is. My conclusion is that it emerged out of the unique environment of already high Basque solidarity, but even more so under Franco's oppression. After a few generations, they admit that the hardcore spirit is gone and made initiatives to try to restore it, but still some…

Based on what I've heard I'd love to visit there and even have a chance to intern there. I'd like to see for myself firsthand what life would be like. Would it be boring? Would it be bureaucratic or unmeritocratic? Would that bother me personally? I don't speak Spanish, unfortunately. Obviously this article gives a rosy picture. However, the renewed interest in alternatives is precisely due to the new forms of arbitr…

They also don't speak much Spanish there, as the Basques have their own ancient unique language (a non-Indo-European isolate actually) and culture due to their mountain isolation and resistance to everyone, even the Romans. The people I worked with there all spoke English.

You might try reaching out to these guys if you want to visit. They actually get a lot of visitors, and there's a whole tour program I did when I was there.

https://mondragonteamacademy.com/

As far as the effectiveness of Mondragon, I agree that we shouldn't judge it by capitalist standards, but more ask: Can it survive within capitalism while still doing well by its people?

I worry that Fagor, etc. may point to that not being long-term true, but it has been around for a long time, so maybe not. I more think that their model is hard to replicate outside of their high solidary cultural environment, rather than predicting their demise.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#273

Post by acoard »

darby_nine wrote: post #250
cholantesh wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be because since 2019 and the withdrawal of the US military presence in NE Syria, the relative prosperity of Rojava has plummeted. This draws into question exactly how 'autonomous' said autonomous zone was.

> This draws into question exactly how 'autonomous' said autonomous zone was. It seems like you're conflating sovereignty with economic dependence, which are two distinct concepts—being entirely economic independent seems highly geographically dependent. Few regions in the world are lucky enough to even have this option. For instance, you can be economically dependent on neighbors but still locally determine who runs…

To be fair, reality can often conflate those two concepts too. What I mean is that in some cases a lack of sovereignty can lead to economic catastrophe if people are willing to pillage your economy by force. As you note it depends on circumstance though - Lichtenstein can get away without having an army; Rojava can't.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#274

Post by UncleSlacky »

WalterBright wrote: post #135
ladyanita22 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's located in Spain, a country not known for its vast wealth. Plus, it's in a special administrative region in Spain, the Basque Country. They enjoy subsidies and favorable treatment from the regional government.

> a country not known for its vast wealth Its looting of the gold and silver from S. America apparently didn't help.

They brought so much to Europe that they crashed the market.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#275

Post by UncleSlacky »

bboygravity wrote: post #220
toyg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After some initial mistakes, the Soviet system did provide basic needs. It was inefficient, badly led, conservative, repressive, ultimately undemocratic, and often produced very mediocre output (crappy houses, etc), but it ensured that everyone had food, shelter, work, healthcare, and education. Neither full-collectivism nor full-capitalism are the final answer.

"some initial mistakes" is quite something to describe 9+ million people dying from hunger in Ukraine during the great famine.

And how many famines were there under the Tsars?

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#276

Post by karaterobot »

mikojan wrote: post #132
karaterobot wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Mondragon is not a socialist enterprise. It's not obvious to me whether you're saying it is, but I think one of the interesting things about Mondragon is that it's somewhere in between the socialist-capitalist dichotomy. If you came along and said "good news, the state is in charge of all your businesses now" they would not consider their mission accomplished.

Socialism traditionally meant workers control over production. To the degree that Mondragon is democratic it is socialist. Socialism came to be commonly associated with "State-capitalist monopoly" (Lenin) later in the 20th century but that does not describe revolutionary Spain at all. There companies were mostly worker owned, democratically managed and freely associated within democratic regional and industrial carte…

Socialism is about social control over production, not worker control. That's the big difference here, so it's relevant to point out. A co-op gives you worker control within the framework of a private ownership society.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#277

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #264
WalterBright wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know. Every failure of communism is because it wasn't really communist! I wonder where the tipping point of "true" communism is? Because the closer one gets to communism, the worse the results. Free markets, on the other hand, work even if they aren't perfect. The more free they are, the better they work.

On the other hand, countries with more regulated markets such as European nations, the U.K. and Commonwealth nations, and Japan and some of the East Asian Tigers might have less pollution than the United States. You get Americans importing EU baby formula because they are more restrictive about what chemical additives can go into them. Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-ce…

> Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position?

The trouble with calling free markets folly is they are enormously successful, in every place and time where they have been tried. The trouble with central economic planning is it always does badly.

BTW, one of the functions of government in a free market is to regulate the externalities - costs of doing business that are not borne by the business. Pollution is the most obvious one of those externalities, so calling a polluting business "extreme free market" is incorrect.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#278

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #266
WalterBright wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoyed reading Toliken's fantasy LODR very much, but my attempts at reading Marx's fantasies felt like hammering a nail into my skull. The attempts at implementing Marxism all ended in misery and famine. What more would anyone need to know about it? BTW, a capitalist investing money also entails risk. How it works is the more risk, the more potential reward. Does Marx account for risk? I ask that because the Marxi…

I haven’t read Marx, nor do I particularly care to, but this seems like an endorsement for intellectual incuriosity.

There are so many interesting things to learn that are reality (like reading history books), why waste the precious remaining few years of my life reading books promoting nonsense?

I read historical accounts about the Kennedy assassination, but don't waste my time on the conspiracy theory books. Nor do I bother with treatises on ancient aliens or UFOs. Or books on astrology, kirlian photography, ESP, flat earth, religions dogma, etc.

If Marxism worked, I'd be more interested in it. But it doesn't, so why bother?

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#279

Post by WalterBright »

UncleSlacky wrote: post #274
WalterBright wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a country not known for its vast wealth Its looting of the gold and silver from S. America apparently didn't help.

They brought so much to Europe that they crashed the market.

Indeed. All they got was inflation. Just like our government flooding the country with printed money. Same cause, same effect It's not a mystery what causes inflation, and inflation does not result in prosperity.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#280

Post by WalterBright »

Apocryphon wrote: post #269
WalterBright wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was America like before capitalists? and after? Where did all that wealth come from, comrade?

Did you know there used to be people who lived on that land

I missed the railroads, steel industries, chip manufacturers, iphones, etc. that were looted from those people?

BTW, studies of the bones of pre-Columbian Indians shows they worked hard and suffered from periodic famines, as well as a lot of violence.

Post reply on HN