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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#201

Post by mixologic »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #195
tombert wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I stopped donating to IA, and I will not donate until they get new leadership. I'm a very big supporter of a lot of what IA does, but I feel if I donate, my money is just going to fund more and more legal defenses because Brewster Kahle is being stubborn, and I'm afraid it's going to lead to the entire Archive being shut down. I've mentioned this before, but there are lots of cases where IA will let you d…

I will admit that I am personally on the fence. I knew for a while that IA was in legal crosshairs and I actually encouraged people to donate to it on this very forum. I am not sure it is fair to stop donations over one miscalculation. Their core mission remains in place and IA is more important to the ecosystem than wikipedia. Not to mention, with this appeal lost, it is not unlikely other entities will try take IA…

Fair though to hesitate over donating if you believe that your donations are not going to go towards the valueable core mission, and instead be misdirected to ill advised legal crusades.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#202

Post by nine_k »

jandrese wrote: post #98
wslh wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, beyond this ruling, could Internet Archive just scan the books, store the data and release it to the public at a later time? I am just thinking about the preservation part in your comment.

"A later time" being the after the year 2100 for most of these works. I am not exaggerating. If the author is still alive today their works won't enter the public domain until after you are dead. One can argue that the Internet Archive would be effectively useless if they strictly followed copyright law.

In the meantime, the copyright duration could be shortened.

Or, from another POV, cultural artifacts we dig out from earth millennia after they were buried still preserve something valuable. An entity like IA should think past one lifetime.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#203

Post by forrestthewoods »

tomxor wrote: post #190
forrestthewoods wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out Even if that were the case I don’t think it’s acceptable. Physical used goods have limitations on transfer rate. If you want a used book you have to go to the store. Or have it shipped across the country. I adamantly oppose a global digital pool with instantaneous transfers. In that world you never nee…

You're arguing against a principle that applies to physical libraries (Who also have films btw)...so are physical libraries also nonsense? Libraries do not serve the interest of publishers (and let's just focus on publishers because if we're being real here, publishers are the ones who stand to lose money - "think of the authors" is just a distraction)... i digress, Libraries exist as a benefit to society, they aren'…

> let's just focus on publishers

No. I'm focusing on all media - books, tv, movies, games, etc. It's one set of copyright laws.

> so are physical libraries also nonsense?

Copyright strikes a balance of rights between content creators/owners and content consumers. Physical libraries with the limitations of physical transfer strike are a reasonable balance. A global digital pool with instantaneous and unlimited transfer of non-degradable goods does not strike a reasonable balance.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#204

Post by Spooky23 »

teruakohatu wrote: post #72
ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

> In his many interviews with U.S. media, he portrays the court cases and legal judgements as a crusade against the Internet Archive and all librarians. It's not. It's the logical outcome of one man's seemingly fanatical conviction against the law and the people who work very hard to bring new books into being. If IA had won, IA would be hailed as a cultural hero. They hit and they missed. Claiming Brewster Kahle is…

You’re taking an extreme and ultimately wrong position.

The the name of this nonsense, the Internet Archive damaged itself, perhaps mortally and damaged the concepts it stands for. Archives should be run by boards of archivists and librarians, not reckless activists.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#205

Post by AcerbicZero »

raytopia wrote: post #34

Crazy that this is not fair use but ai is.

I wonder how legit it would be to have an AI scan over the copy, re-write it (as minimally as possible) in its own words, and then just distribute that.

Probably not all that legit, but arguably thats where we're headed anyway :/

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#206

Post by 0x1ch »

jrflowers wrote: post #185
tombert wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I stopped donating to IA, and I will not donate until they get new leadership. I'm a very big supporter of a lot of what IA does, but I feel if I donate, my money is just going to fund more and more legal defenses because Brewster Kahle is being stubborn, and I'm afraid it's going to lead to the entire Archive being shut down. I've mentioned this before, but there are lots of cases where IA will let you d…

> IA will let you download full video games for the switch that are still being actively sold [1] I am not seeing that anywhere. I see a file called “My Nintendo Switch games collection” and it is a big jpeg photo of a bookshelf. Is this what you mean?

I'm heavy into the tracker and open water scenes.

IA is most certainly holding some amount of content that is copyrighted and currently sold like they mentioned. It's just not easy to find.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#207

Post by dark-star »

tombert wrote: post #172
ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

This is why I stopped donating to IA, and I will not donate until they get new leadership. I'm a very big supporter of a lot of what IA does, but I feel if I donate, my money is just going to fund more and more legal defenses because Brewster Kahle is being stubborn, and I'm afraid it's going to lead to the entire Archive being shut down. I've mentioned this before, but there are lots of cases where IA will let you d…

> IA will let you download full video games for the switch that are still being actively sold

That's a weak argument that is the same as saying "BitTorrent is bad because you can download illegal stuff" or" file hosters should be banned because I found $illegal_thing on this one"

Yes, a free upload service will get abused. And yes, they are very quick to take these kinds of warez downloads offline when someone notifies them.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#208

Post by pineaux »

tomxor wrote: post #190
forrestthewoods wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out Even if that were the case I don’t think it’s acceptable. Physical used goods have limitations on transfer rate. If you want a used book you have to go to the store. Or have it shipped across the country. I adamantly oppose a global digital pool with instantaneous transfers. In that world you never nee…

You're arguing against a principle that applies to physical libraries (Who also have films btw)...so are physical libraries also nonsense? Libraries do not serve the interest of publishers (and let's just focus on publishers because if we're being real here, publishers are the ones who stand to lose money - "think of the authors" is just a distraction)... i digress, Libraries exist as a benefit to society, they aren'…

Also you are allowed to lend your book out to anybody in earth at any time you want. You have bought the book, its yours you can do with it what you want. Burn it, read it, use it as toiletpaper. You arent allowed to republish the book however and earn money on it. Or give it away for free. So the real question here is: what is the definition of publishing. Is the IA publishing?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#209

Post by JoshTriplett »

tptacek wrote: post #170
JoshTriplett wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair use is not "very straightforward law", and is deliberately a fuzzy line; I do in fact think CDL should have passed a fair-use analysis. Separately I also think the law should improve.

In which part of this case were the judges required to stretch at all? The decision is conveniently broken down across the 4-part fair use test.

It seems like you're making a "what happened" argument in response to a "what should have happened" argument. It's possible to make an argument in favor of this being fair use, and it's possible to make an argument against fair use. The (subjective) decision here was the latter; it doesn't preclude the possibility of the former. I'm not arguing that it was a stretch to say "no"; I'm arguing that it also wasn't a stretch to say "yes".

In terms of the fair use argument that could have been made, the Internet Archive's CDL obviously failed "nature of" and "amount and substantiality of", but I think it did not inherently fail "purpose and character" or "effect of the use", despite the decision saying it did.

In terms of concrete legal changes that could and should happen: "right of first sale" should be updated for digital, and include both "right to do format-shifting" (e.g. scanning physical to digital) and "right to lend copies digitally" (just like first-sale already explicitly allows physically).

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#210

Post by jhbadger »

EarlKing wrote: post #134
msla wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CDL is how physical libraries work: They buy a book and then lend it out multiple times to multiple people, on a one-in one-out basis, who then do not have to buy the book themselves. They even repair books to avoid purchasing new ones again. Do you think physical libraries harm the people who bring books into being?

A physical library does not involve making a copy, but lending out an existing physical copy. One book, one reader. "Controlled Digital Lending" literally involves making and transmitting a copy to another physical medium electronically. Brewster has endangered the good work done by people at the archive for a case he was never going to win and which was of dubious value. If he wants to be the next Anna's Archive the…

It does when the physical library is loaning an ebook -- it works on exactly the same principal as CDL -- library owns ebook, library loans out to one user the ebook -- that's why there is often a wait list when trying to check out ebooks from a real physical library. In fact, even the same DRM system is used to prevent the user from keeping the ebook after the loan is up -- Adobe's Digital Editions.
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