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Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

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Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. So the chronic effects that the study found are not linked to the lack of a job, but the lack of income that a job brings. Because people without a job but with money don't suffer those effects.

This isn't complicated. People like the feeling of doing productive work. If you are independently wealthy, you can do whatever you want. Hobbies or volunteering, among other things, fill that need. If you are employed, you get that reward with your paycheck at least. Ideally the work itself is also rewarding, providing the satisfaction of doing something productive. This is why people can be happy doing rewarding wo…

Throughout a lifetime of intellectual pursuits, I've found that being forced on to a UBI or disability benefit long term led to gradually building a life based around the things I truly value, and spending my productive time paying my way to society and the planet in the typically-non-monetary manners of my choosing.

It was hard to start off, of course, because it's unconventional. But now it is sweeter than conventional employment ever was for me, where I did not fit and caused issues for everybody involved.

That's not to say one or other is inherently superior. And that's the point, in a way. Conventional employment is only one of the possible means through which the claimed rewards of life can be had.

Beyond that, the reliance is only a function of social structure. That is, if we collectively choose to "look down" upon certain demographics, then those demographics will indeed feel perenially looked down upon! - because we've made it so.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you bring up psychology, then completely botch it, just as the study did. > sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this...thus, people who are long-term unemployed likely feel that they lack control of their lives because this is true. you and the study are not controlling for people who feel they lack control of their lives tending to do a poorer job of find…

It's equally plausible that employers treat people with particular trait cluster poorly, and that eventually they give up on getting abused.

[flagged]

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#53
I was never really unemployed, but even for the short period when I was on a sabbatical, migrated to a new country and didn't work for just over two months, I felt weird about it. I remember seeing all the people going to work, complaining about it, and felt somewhat inadequate, fraudulent and maladapted for not working. So I can only imagine how hard that must be when you experience that on a longer term, get rejections on your applications, and see your financial cushions dwindling (if you were lucky enough to have any).

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might be overestimating the number of people who could do this: "you could always get a job as long as you had a pulse and could name a programming language". Gig work has been found to be intensely on the rise, with very little of the already meager protections of full time employment. Companies that basically run saas + employment marketplaces reduced their overhead and risk strategically by only hiring…

> People's expectations were that pensions would be replaced by 401ks, and retirement could start at 65. And that's kind of the rub: I don't think people's expectations were that 401k plans would replace pensions; I think employer's expectations were this and the individual worker was sold a false bill of goods. From what I know (I wasn't economically active when this change happened), the original push for 401k plan…

> Thus we've wound up in this system where, like many things in the US, everyone loses except the people who got there first

Someone has been paying close attention... Now for the next question, how does one "get there" first? Answer that, and you too can become rich.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#57
post #44
post #15

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they'…

you bring up psychology, then completely botch it, just as the study did. > sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this...thus, people who are long-term unemployed likely feel that they lack control of their lives because this is true. you and the study are not controlling for people who feel they lack control of their lives tending to do a poorer job of find…

How would you control for this? How would you control for the opposite?

BTW there's a lot of data that shows that it's the opposite of your assumptions that's true.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#59
post #15

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they'…

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it seems to be borne out elsewhere. So yeah, I think what the authors are seeing is the effect of chronic poverty, not chronic unemployment.

Your friend isn't unemployed by definition.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#60
post #28
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care, yes. A 401k is your money and goes with you if you leave, it's the older pension model that has issues with people jumping around.

I think the model of staying at a single employer for your whole career then getting a pension is a better model than our current layoff and job hopping every 2-years just to keep up with inflation. Special knowledge of the product is lost, and it takes a lot of time to get up to speed on a new product. Then again, most modern products are throw away garbage that barely lasts two years anyway.

What is you make a poor choice of job early in your career?

What if your chosen employer runs into bad economic conditions and needs to shrink itself to match?

What if something comes up with family and you need to move to a different state?

.

The 401k model is much less fragile if life goes less then perfectly.

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