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Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

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Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#11

Post by dehrmann »

tbrownaw wrote: post #6
nine_zeros wrote: post #3

The employment model needs to change. With the rise of gig work, constant firings and layoffs, large 30 year debts or school debts on people are unsustainable. So is healthcare being tied to employer and 401k tied to employer. The risk is all individual, the gains are all to corporations and lenders aka asset owners. This is unsustainable. Something has to change.

Health care, yes. A 401k is your money and goes with you if you leave, it's the older pension model that has issues with people jumping around.

The other issue with pensions is they're run and funded by the company. Some benefits are guaranteed, some aren't. It's also a distraction for the company. Their expertise is in making widgets, not running pensions. Plus it opens the door for funding shenanigans and liability (GE comes to mind). This always should have been outsourced to private pension managers or possibly governments.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#13

Post by Aurornis »

nine_zeros wrote: post #3

The employment model needs to change. With the rise of gig work, constant firings and layoffs, large 30 year debts or school debts on people are unsustainable. So is healthcare being tied to employer and 401k tied to employer. The risk is all individual, the gains are all to corporations and lenders aka asset owners. This is unsustainable. Something has to change.

> With the rise of gig work, constant firings and layoffs,

I’m honestly fascinated that people think gig work, firing, layoffs and 30-year mortgages are recent phenomena.

If you had to pick a point in the last century to enter the job market, now is certainly not the best time. However it is far, far from the worst time.

I think it speaks to just how distorted the tech job market was in recent years. For a couple years it felt like everyone was hiring, nobody got laid off, and you could always get a job as long as you had a pulse and could name a programming language. That wasn’t normal but many people’s expectations very quickly reset to that.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#15

Post by advael »

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this

In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they're retired as "unemployed". Thus, people who are long-term unemployed likely feel that they lack control of their lives because this is true. I guess it's good to know that they are aware of their situation. It would be weirder if they weren't

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#16

Post by marcus_holmes »

advael wrote: post #15

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they'…

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it seems to be borne out elsewhere.

So yeah, I think what the authors are seeing is the effect of chronic poverty, not chronic unemployment.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#17

Post by ilc »

gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #9
hackit2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People use their job as an identity - and via extension some use religion, one of the lessons you learn later on in your life is that your identity isn't your job, achievements, money, anything. You identity shouldn't be dependent on any of those things.

While this does seem rather zen, what would it look like?

The key is to not over invest in work. Work is not life. Work is something you do to enable you to do the things, that are you life.

I enjoy programming. I program for a living. But, I also have riders on my employment contract that allow me to code outside of work, and enjoy that.

For others, it will be gaming, sailing, anything. The key is to fill that void that your work identity leaves behind with things that you do and control.

In doing so, you take control of your life. I am not perfect here, but because I can balance several different things... none of them control me fully, I control me.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#18

Post by ilc »

hackit2 wrote: post #10
squigz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point that providing some basis for one's identity is only one aspect of why people draw meaning from a job - as GP points out, it is more about providing purpose and a sense that one is contributing to something Though I do wonder - what, in your opinion, should one's identity be based around?

How you choose to react to situations, and how you choose to act in your life is what defines your identity. Not the results you gained by effort or achievement or lack thereof. > that one is contributing to something I feel sorry for people who measure their self based on some consumerism yard stick, it is pathological.

Contributing to something can be helping at the local church, or other things of value.

I don't consider the urge to help others a negative one. But one shouldn't measure. It is doing the thing to do it for whatever your reasons are, that matters.

If I choose to build something to help a kid walk, I am contributing to many things. And yet, I may get paid nothing, and not even care.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#19

Post by raincom »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
advael wrote: post #15

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they'…

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it seems to be borne out elsewhere. So yeah, I think what the authors are seeing is the effect of chronic poverty, not chronic unemployment.

what if chronic unemployment leads to poverty?

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#20

Post by advael »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
advael wrote: post #15

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they'…

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it seems to be borne out elsewhere. So yeah, I think what the authors are seeing is the effect of chronic poverty, not chronic unemployment.

Aye, exactly that. Even as someone who loves to do a dumb research project, it's starting to irk me how much funding can apparently go into essentially studying the various detrimental effects of poverty in exactly the same ways and concluding "well clearly poverty correlates with [broadly defined bad outcome] but there's no way to determine causality here"
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