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Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

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Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#21

Post by squigz »

hackit2 wrote: post #10
squigz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point that providing some basis for one's identity is only one aspect of why people draw meaning from a job - as GP points out, it is more about providing purpose and a sense that one is contributing to something Though I do wonder - what, in your opinion, should one's identity be based around?

How you choose to react to situations, and how you choose to act in your life is what defines your identity. Not the results you gained by effort or achievement or lack thereof. > that one is contributing to something I feel sorry for people who measure their self based on some consumerism yard stick, it is pathological.

> I feel sorry for people who measure their self based on some consumerism yard stick, it is pathological.

I mean, if you think this sums up every job everyone has, then I feel sorry for you. Many people are doing laudable work that has nothing to do with "consumerism"

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#22

Post by advael »

raincom wrote: post #19
marcus_holmes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it seems to be borne out elsewhere. So yeah, I think what the authors are seeing is the effect of chronic poverty, not chronic unemployment.

what if chronic unemployment leads to poverty?

Clearly there's some correlation between poverty and unemployment, but since we didn't do an RCT there's just no way to tell causality here

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#23

Post by naming_the_user »

advael wrote: post #15

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they'…

For what it's worth, as someone who doesn't need to work on a daily basis (made enough in my 20s), extended periods of unemployment can quite easily lead me down a similar path to the one that the article describes.

If you slip into a pattern of not waking up at a reasonable time, staying indoors and not exercising, not making attempts to socialise, etc, then it can be quite easy to throw your brain chemistry out of whack and spiral into what is essentially a form of depression.

A job (or a business, partner, family, serious enough hobby, etc) forces you to do all of that, it sets you up with a basic framework, whereas if you are completely free from constraint no-one is going to tell you to get out of bed at 8am, 9am, 10am.... 2pm...

Of course, if you're poor and unable to find work, then you have all of that _on top of_ the financial stresses.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#24

Post by wakawaka28 »

advael wrote: post #22
raincom wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what if chronic unemployment leads to poverty?

Clearly there's some correlation between poverty and unemployment, but since we didn't do an RCT there's just no way to tell causality here

No way to tell? Really?? It doesn't take a randomized controlled trial to know that there are more poor people who can't find work than rich chaps living on their savings or inheritance by choice.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#25

Post by squigz »

ilc wrote: post #18
hackit2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How you choose to react to situations, and how you choose to act in your life is what defines your identity. Not the results you gained by effort or achievement or lack thereof. > that one is contributing to something I feel sorry for people who measure their self based on some consumerism yard stick, it is pathological.

Contributing to something can be helping at the local church, or other things of value. I don't consider the urge to help others a negative one. But one shouldn't measure. It is doing the thing to do it for whatever your reasons are, that matters. If I choose to build something to help a kid walk, I am contributing to many things. And yet, I may get paid nothing, and not even care.

> I may get paid nothing, and not even care.

Even if you did get paid, it doesn't take away from what you're doing.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#26

Post by wakawaka28 »

qingcharles wrote: post #14
morkalork wrote: post #12

This is seems obvious to anyone who knows someone who has struggled with unemployment.

This also affects a lot of people who have been locked up in jail or prison.

At least in those cases, you have a clear reason to expect to have a hard time. If you never did anything wrong to anyone and worked hard your whole life, being unemployed through no fault of your own is jarring and upsets a lot of deeply held assumptions about your relationship with society.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#27

Post by nradov »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #16
advael wrote: post #15

I know it's important to do science that comes to obvious conclusions, but sometimes the interiority-centric framework of psychology seems comically ill-fit for topics like this In most countries in the world, money is what allows you to have any control over your life. For most people who aren't already rich, their having money relies on being employed, and we tend not to describe people who don't work because they'…

I have a friend who got lucky in his mid-30's and never worked again. He doesn't suffer from any of the symptoms described in TFA. I know its anecdata, but it seems to be borne out elsewhere. So yeah, I think what the authors are seeing is the effect of chronic poverty, not chronic unemployment.

Unemployment is a specific term in economics which refers only to workers who don't have a job and are actively looking for a job. People like your friend aren't unemployed they just don't have a job.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#28

Post by vinyl7 »

tbrownaw wrote: post #6
nine_zeros wrote: post #3

The employment model needs to change. With the rise of gig work, constant firings and layoffs, large 30 year debts or school debts on people are unsustainable. So is healthcare being tied to employer and 401k tied to employer. The risk is all individual, the gains are all to corporations and lenders aka asset owners. This is unsustainable. Something has to change.

Health care, yes. A 401k is your money and goes with you if you leave, it's the older pension model that has issues with people jumping around.

I think the model of staying at a single employer for your whole career then getting a pension is a better model than our current layoff and job hopping every 2-years just to keep up with inflation. Special knowledge of the product is lost, and it takes a lot of time to get up to speed on a new product. Then again, most modern products are throw away garbage that barely lasts two years anyway.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#29

Post by nine_zeros »

Aurornis wrote: post #13
nine_zeros wrote: post #3

The employment model needs to change. With the rise of gig work, constant firings and layoffs, large 30 year debts or school debts on people are unsustainable. So is healthcare being tied to employer and 401k tied to employer. The risk is all individual, the gains are all to corporations and lenders aka asset owners. This is unsustainable. Something has to change.

> With the rise of gig work, constant firings and layoffs, I’m honestly fascinated that people think gig work, firing, layoffs and 30-year mortgages are recent phenomena. If you had to pick a point in the last century to enter the job market, now is certainly not the best time. However it is far, far from the worst time. I think it speaks to just how distorted the tech job market was in recent years. For a couple yea…

> I’m honestly fascinated that people think gig work, firing, layoffs and 30-year mortgages are recent phenomena.

These things are not a recent phenomena but lack of union jobs is recentish - last 30 years.

It was unionization that gave any sense of stability, which made the 30 year mortgage, 401k and, healthcare-from-employer sustainable. Gig work and constant hiring/firing was only left for small employment. Not at large City-sized employers.

Now without unionization, the 30-year mortgage, 401k and healthcare from employer model is obsolete.

Re: Long-term unemployment leads to disengagement and apathy

#30

Post by advael »

wakawaka28 wrote: post #24
advael wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly there's some correlation between poverty and unemployment, but since we didn't do an RCT there's just no way to tell causality here

No way to tell? Really?? It doesn't take a randomized controlled trial to know that there are more poor people who can't find work than rich chaps living on their savings or inheritance by choice.

Yes, in our population samples people who have income from a job report feeling like they have more money than people who have no income from being long-term unemployed. But due the cross-sectional design of our study it's impossible to determine causality
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