Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#41

Post by kamaal » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:39 PM UTC

hkarthik wrote: post #31

jt2190 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me with you until you used the phrase "foreign workers." It's not their foreignness that makes them cheaper, it's that (in the U.S. at least) they're not able to easily change jobs and demand fair market wages, because their visa ties them to one employer.

The foreignness makes them cheaper in that it makes it easier for companies to justify paying them less and forcing their loyalty through the visa regulations. It has nothing to do with their qualifications which are often excellent.

Its also that most people perceive US as some sort 'promised land'. There are a lot of people who will do anything just to come to the US, and they would make endless sacrifices if told they would have to permanently settle down there.

Such people get easily used up in these scenarios.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#42

Post by pnathan » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:46 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #29

I learned that the cat you let out of the bag is the same animal as the pig in a poke Nope, the cat is the cat o' nine tails, when it was taken out of its bag, it was because someone was about to be punished. No idea what he means by this comment.

Erm, when you take a cat of a bag, you ain't putting it back in without more than a few scratches to yourself.

Usually this is described in relation to a secret or a hidden truth: when it's out, you can't kill the truth, you have to live with the release of the information.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#43

Post by TheCount » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

sparknlaunch wrote: post #27

> [Campbell talks about boom and bust cycles...] People always dismissed it, when I told them - if only I was born x years earlier I would have graduated at the start of the boom cycle. I would have landed a high paying role out of college/Uni and earned enough cash by the end of the cycle to see me through the bust years. With the work experience I would have a better chance competing against new grads. Considering…

You are correct:

The Long-Term Labor Market Consequences of Graduating from College in a Bad Economy

http://mba.yale.edu/faculty/pdf/kahn_longtermlabor.pdf

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#44

Post by TheCount » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 5:05 PM UTC

hkarthik wrote: post #23

A significant issue is that nobody trains employees while compensating them fairly based on their aptitude. So the only option is for employees to bounce around to get new skills and better wages. Employers hate this and constantly complain about "employee loyalty", not recognizing that job hopping is the only real defense that an employee has to be fairly compensated. Here is a fictional account that illustrates the…

Are you saying the solution is for Company B to regularly raise employee pay to market levels? Eg, at the conclusion of John Doe's first year, raise his salary 30%. If so, why do you think this doesn't happen? Because employers think the employee will stay without a raise?

I don't work in software, but this happens to varying degrees in many industries. I asked why employers don't simply regularly raise salaries to market levels, instead of giving years of meager 3% wages until the employee finally bails. That way, they reduce their turnover costs. Of course, this won't work, if the poaching company can extract more value out of the employee than the incumbent employer can.

That aside, one answer I got is that many employees will simply not try to get a market wage, so you'd be throwing away money on raises on employees who wouldn't care. I'm not sure that employees are this ignorant or unconcerned about pay.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#45

Post by tokenizer » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #11

tokenizer wrote: post #3

I think this all goes back to the fact that wages are stagnant for most of the world, and companies don't foster employees anymore. You need to cultivate experience in workers sometimes, especially if you have a complex system in place. Employees have no loyalty anymore, because of the cutting of benefits and wages. Employers have no loyal employees anymore, which means they require 3 to 5 years experience to give th…

"Most of the world"? Lets not overstate things: the past few decades have been relatively great for labor in China, India, Africa, Indonesia, and Latin America. In the highly developed economies (particularly the USA), yeah, wages have frozen, but really good things have been happening elsewhere.

Fair enough. I can't retract the original statement, but I meant OECD countries.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#46

Post by tokenizer » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 5:15 PM UTC

gutnor wrote: post #38

tokenizer wrote: post #3

I think this all goes back to the fact that wages are stagnant for most of the world, and companies don't foster employees anymore. You need to cultivate experience in workers sometimes, especially if you have a complex system in place. Employees have no loyalty anymore, because of the cutting of benefits and wages. Employers have no loyal employees anymore, which means they require 3 to 5 years experience to give th…

It is not really cutting the benefits and wages that affect loyalty. Seeing my parent generation, they all understood that there were good and bad time in a company and that sometimes you needed to work for the greater good (of the company). The major difference, they had their job for life. Now you are a despised resource. If you are not in sales, you are a "cost center". A previous boss of mine, during a company me…

And that's the way you have to be! Unfortunately both sides a reinforcing the other side to remain steadfast. But only the companies can make the first move towards what we had before.

I would have no problem staying loyal to a company under a different set of circumstances.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#47

Post by tokenizer » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 5:17 PM UTC

ep103 wrote: post #7

tokenizer wrote: post #3

I think this all goes back to the fact that wages are stagnant for most of the world, and companies don't foster employees anymore. You need to cultivate experience in workers sometimes, especially if you have a complex system in place. Employees have no loyalty anymore, because of the cutting of benefits and wages. Employers have no loyal employees anymore, which means they require 3 to 5 years experience to give th…

I'm just an employee, but if you want to gain my loyalty, just throw some benefits and wages at me. Cycle avoided.

I absolutely agree. It all starts with an appreciation of what you do for me; which is you come in to work every day, and work for me. I can count on you, but in return, I have to give you peace of mind, and a competitive salary.

Most companies have altogether made it clear that no job is stable, and competitive salaries continue to shrink...

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#48

Post by horsehead » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

Wow. This interview is SPOT ON. So applicable to pretty much every industry. Thanks for posting. Worth resharing through other networks. Hopefully more people will read stuff like this that actually explains the hiring problems employers face.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#49

Post by wisty » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

cafard wrote: post #16

"Steven Cherry: Employers can’t find workers at the going wage. True or false? Peter Cappelli: That’s false, and that’s almost by definition the case, because we know how markets work, and markets adjust and wages adjust. I had an employer write to me the other day saying they had a skills gap, and they really did. It wasn’t wages, because they did market wage surveys, and they were paying what everybody else was pay…

That seems pretty myopic.

Let's say I run a coffee shop. I sell $3 cups of coffee, which is the market rate, but can't get any customers. I have no signage, don't advertise, and I'm rude to customers.

That's what a lot of companies are like - they don't treat recruitment as a core business, but as an annoying distraction (like doing taxes).

The best way to get a job is to cold call companies, or network. It's like if coffee shops with a customer acquisition strategy of "wait for people to find the shop by accident, then hope they invite their friends".

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#50

Post by wccrawford » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 6:10 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #12

ebiester wrote: post #9

The unstated counter-argument is that the employer will have to train inexperienced workers who will leave as soos as they become competent and experienced, or pay as much as you would for the experienced person in the first place. Myself, I'd rather train someone up in my process without them learning bad habits, even if that means they're pairing with me for 30 hours out of 40. That said, I'm an exception. Once upo…

That's because companies don't give them raises commensurate with their new experience. Each year for the first 2-3 years or so a new employee that's any good should be receiving large raises on top of their presumably modest starting salary. The problem is that companies think they can get away with keeping people anchored to those starting salaries. It doesn't work; morale suffers and they leave. Finding a young em…

Exactly. My first company did this for me, and I stayed and was loyal for 2 years beyond when they stopped treating me fairly. I'd still be there, happy and productive, if they had continued paying me what I was worth instead of claiming the economy wouldn't let me.

Shortly after I left, they put out a job posting for 7 people, each at more than I would have accepted to stay.

The job I left for was paying even more than that job posting, and I'm still here today.

So why did they do that? Why treat me fairly initially, then stop? They didn't really gain much. I was unhappy for 2 years and my job performance suffered for it. They replaced me with people who didn't have my knowledge of their systems, and they paid them more. It was absolute insanity.