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Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

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21–30 of 80 posts

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#21

I landed a great programming job with no experience and no degree because I could walk in there and talk about what I had taught myself and done on my own time. I know this doesn't transfer to every situation in every industry, but I think much of the problem stems from people who haven't put in much effort to make themselves marketable and to educate themselves. If I saw that, I would make the assumption that the co…

Same here. The issue with most people is that "you don't know what you don't know", coupled with the fact that most still have the idea that college/on the job training will suffice, while many companies are no longer providing training. It takes a specific mentality to take the time to learn a craft with little to no immediate benefit in sight--you see this in other fields too, but they're not the norm. The question…

In my opinion, the latter (the former will work itself out). All these startups we're starting, we need to remember this when they start growing and maturing. It's a kind of giving back that benefits you, too.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#22
Peter Cappelli: Well, it doesn’t look like that’s true. The business degrees are now, by far, the most popular major, and that’s where people are getting jobs, so that’s pretty common.

Seriously? Everyone I knew with just a business degree ended up with a crap retail job. Most of the people in engineering seemed to go into the jobs the business majors wanted.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#23
A significant issue is that nobody trains employees while compensating them fairly based on their aptitude. So the only option is for employees to bounce around to get new skills and better wages. Employers hate this and constantly complain about "employee loyalty", not recognizing that job hopping is the only real defense that an employee has to be fairly compensated.

Here is a fictional account that illustrates the point:

John Doe currently writes C++ and finds Company A with great benefits and excellent compensation, but they only hire experienced Python programmers. But across the street, Company B will hire C++ programmers and train them on Python. Company B doesn't pay nearly as well, and the benefits are also pretty poor in comparison to Company A.

Company B offers John a position, but at a below market salary for Python programmers. John would be taking a pay cut from what he makes as a C++ programmer, but he takes the job anyway.

Being a highly capable individual, after 1 year John is one of the top Python programmers in Company B. John meets some engineers from Company A at a local meetup, and they recruit him to come interview with Company A. John passes the interviews with flying colors and is offered 30% more salary at Company A than he currently makes at Company B. This is now more than John ever made as a C++ programmer so he gladly takes the job, after only staying at Company B for a year.

Similar events occur with many more employees from Company B as they all start getting poached by Company A. Company B creates a non-compete agreement with Company A to keep its programmers from leaving.

Company A now complains to Congress that it can't find enough workers and needs to hire more foreign workers to fill the gap. It gets more foreign workers, which it can then hire at lower salaries without having to poach talent from Company B. Over time, the executives at Company A realize the cost savings and start cutting salaries, raises, and benefits.

Engineers at both Company A and B now realize their wages are stagnating and they all start leaving for other opportunities. Executives at Company A and B start lobbying Congress more and complaining to the press about a talent shortage and their inability to find workers.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#24
post #16

"Steven Cherry: Employers can’t find workers at the going wage. True or false? Peter Cappelli: That’s false, and that’s almost by definition the case, because we know how markets work, and markets adjust and wages adjust. I had an employer write to me the other day saying they had a skills gap, and they really did. It wasn’t wages, because they did market wage surveys, and they were paying what everybody else was pay…

He's basically saying that the skills gap was not due to the company, but to unnaturally low compensation levels enforced by all companies in the sector. So all companies were creating their own "skills gap", because none of them wanted to pay more than the others for this set of skills.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#25

A significant issue is that nobody trains employees while compensating them fairly based on their aptitude. So the only option is for employees to bounce around to get new skills and better wages. Employers hate this and constantly complain about "employee loyalty", not recognizing that job hopping is the only real defense that an employee has to be fairly compensated. Here is a fictional account that illustrates the…

You had me with you until you used the phrase "foreign workers." It's not their foreignness that makes them cheaper, it's that (in the U.S. at least) they're not able to easily change jobs and demand fair market wages, because their visa ties them to one employer.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#26
Publicly complaining you can't find staff seems like a terrible idea.

It's an obvious selling point for the competition. "It looks to me like they're one illness away from missing shipments" is an easy fear to plant in someones mind.

Couple that with hiring away one or two solid staff members, and you're going to fail publicly.

The more committed you are to the fiction free markets don't work, the more you're going to suffer.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#27
> [Campbell talks about boom and bust cycles...]

People always dismissed it, when I told them - if only I was born x years earlier I would have graduated at the start of the boom cycle. I would have landed a high paying role out of college/Uni and earned enough cash by the end of the cycle to see me through the bust years. With the work experience I would have a better chance competing against new grads. Considering the value of money etc, benefiting from a 2/3 boom cycle could put you well ahead financially.

While this is rather simplistic and exceptions to the rule, timing can make one hell of a difference.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#28

A significant issue is that nobody trains employees while compensating them fairly based on their aptitude. So the only option is for employees to bounce around to get new skills and better wages. Employers hate this and constantly complain about "employee loyalty", not recognizing that job hopping is the only real defense that an employee has to be fairly compensated. Here is a fictional account that illustrates the…

That's why Company B would never hire a C++ programmer and train them. Instead they would hire people who knew python (and insist of Python2.7rc2 b34 patch level 42 experience) AND pay less and rely on getting people that were either rejected from A or didn't find A.

They would then decide the problem was python, fire all the programmers and try again with magic-silver-bullet technology of the day

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#29
I learned that the cat you let out of the bag is the same animal as the pig in a poke

Nope, the cat is the cat o' nine tails, when it was taken out of its bag, it was because someone was about to be punished. No idea what he means by this comment.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#30
post #9

The unstated counter-argument is that the employer will have to train inexperienced workers who will leave as soos as they become competent and experienced, or pay as much as you would for the experienced person in the first place. Myself, I'd rather train someone up in my process without them learning bad habits, even if that means they're pairing with me for 30 hours out of 40. That said, I'm an exception. Once upo…

This is an excellent point, and perhaps an argument against at-will employment. Even if you had a candidate who was willing to commit to staying employed long enough to justify the time and expense of their training, in many US States they lack the legal power to agree to such a contract. Extrapolating from personal experience here as a programmer but it looks tough for a couple of reasons, one of which is pay. Emplo…

Being in an at-will state does not remove the ability to have and enforce an employment contract.
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