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Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

economist.com

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Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#191

Post by cen4 »

jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151
throwaway3521 wrote: post #15

At which point we admit that current approaches to helping these countries does nothing and we reach out for other, radical, approaches and ideas?

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

"Security" as provided by the Pentagon/MIL complex is an evolution of what the Brits used to do to maintain order across the Empire. After the Empire fell, the Americans basically cut and paste that policy, where the goal is mainly about protecting the flows of capital and trade. Colonial legacy and thinking needs a total reboot. Will die out naturally as boomers trained in that kind of thinking pre-globalization die out.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#192

Post by feedforward »

yyyk wrote: post #176
feedforward wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I'd love to see many parts of Africa and the mideast embrace the enlightenment values that have created our modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties, free speech, independent court systems, a secular state, etc. I don't think those cultural values are in place. Anyone who knows the history of the past decades and centuries o…

Yeah, the Muslim Brotherhood was such a swell brand, just tell the Copts that. Transnational Islamism doesn't make any trouble either. And to be frank, the US didn't want communism to take over after apartheid. One Mugabe was bad enough, and an even more badly mismanaged SA would be a disaster. On all issues you mention, the choices were often unpleasant, but always had their reasons.

So what you're saying is the West wanted (and funded and armed) tough governments that kept a lid on things as opposed to "modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties, free speech, independent court systems, a secular state".

People can be on your side or not, but at least you are rooted in the real world and actual history.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#193

Post by blackhawkC17 »

185504a9 wrote: post #190
throwaway3521 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for a context here: I actually live in almost-third-world country. Thankfully no famine and loss of live but extremely dysfunctional state and society and with educational system collapsing - probably no future. My countrymen, we, could not govern ourselves. I wish this country was occupied and someone built better society!

Not even pretending to make a rational reply here, but I've seen a lot of despicable stuff on the internet and this comment may be the one that made me the angriest. I really hope this is some sort of satire because my blood is about to evaporate. Jesus fucking Christ

I'm from a dysfunctional third-world country, too (Nigeria), and I agree with the GP. Our population lacks the ability to cooperate for the greater good. Politics here is insanely tribal and corrupt. We're heading for the tatters, except something miraculous happens.

If you've never lived in a poor, corrupt, dysfunctional place, you'll not understand how bad life is that'll make someone wish to be occupied.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#194

Post by 1oooqooq »

shadowgovt wrote: post #182
jksflkjl3jk3 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about going in the other direction? Completely stay out of their business and let whatever emerges from the chaos develop on its own? Central planning of societies doesn't have a good track record, especially when there are competing external interests. Look at the horrific consequences of the American meddling in geopolitics of the third world over the last 100 years. The CIA and war industry is responsible for…

That's what the world tried with Germany after World War I. There's a reason we stopped believing "just let sovereign nations sort themselves out" is the best approach. It's a pretty selfish reason.

that's too wrong to even behind to address.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#195

Post by walthamstow »

joker99 wrote: post #178
jajko wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe but its doesn't work in democracies well. Main reason why EU won't ever compete with US economically, while being also very rich and actually more populous. You should also compare it to situation where those countries wouldn't be centrally planned. Not so possible without time machine, so let's leave out measuring of efficiency of such systems. Ie when in Eastern Europe communism and central planning failed an…

That is not the main reason. Not even close. Here’s a list of main reasons, in no particular order: - 8 different currencies across EU member states - 24 languages - 27 sovereign countries with wildly different economic, social, foreign, military … policies - laws and regulations are only slowly harmonised across the board - deep seating historic prejudices (which lead to major wars in the past) - unfriendly and down…

The EU has existed for less than a lifetime. Before that we were competing against each other, with bloody consequences.

How many wars were fought on European soil between 1776 and today? I couldn't even begin to answer that.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#196

Post by blackhawkC17 »

feedforward wrote: post #192
yyyk wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Muslim Brotherhood was such a swell brand, just tell the Copts that. Transnational Islamism doesn't make any trouble either. And to be frank, the US didn't want communism to take over after apartheid. One Mugabe was bad enough, and an even more badly mismanaged SA would be a disaster. On all issues you mention, the choices were often unpleasant, but always had their reasons.

So what you're saying is the West wanted (and funded and armed) tough governments that kept a lid on things as opposed to "modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties, free speech, independent court systems, a secular state". People can be on your side or not, but at least you are rooted in the real world and actual history.

Egypt elected the Muslim Brotherhood into power. There's nothing about the Muslim Brotherhood pertaining to "modern governments built around such ideals as individual rights, rule of law, checks and balances, multiple political parties, free speech, independent court systems, a secular state".

Better to deal with a secular dictator than an elected religious extremist. Elected Islamists always crap on democracy once they're elected.

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#198

Post by notahacker »

distances wrote: post #159
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We didn't do what throwaway3521 said, though. We tried to do it "on the cheap", just occupying, not actually transforming the society, and not staying for 50 years. For context: We occupied Japan for, what, 12 years? We technically occupied Germany longer, but practically it was about the same (I think - from memory and not researched). In that time, we transformed them from violent, racially superior, conquer-the-wo…

I would assume a more important factor was that Germany and Japan were both very organized, successful industrialized societies long before facing their respective downfalls in the wars. Iraq and Afghanistan both had a very, very different starting position and it would be unreasonable to expect a similar outcome.

Other relevant context includes the fact that it was actually West Germany, with the East providing strong incentives to both the US and the West Germans to make it work, and that this was not the first attempt to turn the successful, industrialized and well educated Germany into a democracy with peaceful relations with its neighbours...

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#199

Post by jmyeet »

Just a reminder that all famine is political. The world, as a whole, produces more than it consumes. Famine is a political willingness to let certain people starve and die. It could be one internal group in a country willing to starve another. It could be entities external to the country willing to let it starve.

Functionally, famine is little different to death squads.

Further to this, we have a sanitized term in the modern era for intentionally starving people to death. It's called "economic sanctions" [1].

[1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/25/lets-remember-m...

Re: Anarchy in Sudan has spawned the world’s worst famine in 40 years

#200

Post by urduntupu »

kibwen wrote: post #148
hggh wrote: post #105

That's not anarchy, obviously

It may not be anarchism as professed by anarchists (which is itself a broad and fractious array of philosophies generally having to do with abolishing involuntary hierarchies, related to classical libertarianism), but it is a form of anarchy, at least as it is popularly understood. Terminology fails here; at this point any serious anarchists need to come to grips with the fact that this sort of "chaotic anarchy" is w…

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