Crows are even smarter than we thought • Hacker News Board

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#251

Post by evanmoran » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 3:29 PM UTC

wruza wrote: post #150

evanmoran wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the sentiment, but human children who are 2 completely dominate all known animal intelligence. They can speak in sentences and use tools in complex ways. There may be studies that show a raven might use a stick to help it find food. Well, a two year old will carry a stool halfway across the house to reach the scissors that will open a bag of veggie straws :) At 3 they can recognize letters _easily_ and start l…

A quick search on youtube shows that crows are much smarter than just getting food with a stick. Also isn’t the general agreement/stereotype about dogs having 5 years old int stat?

I’ve seen this before as well, but as a parent with two kids who loves to wonder about this very question, I can assure you a five year old (a kindergartener) is much, much smarter then a dog. They are filled with ideas and imagination, math / reading / writing capability, creative drawing and of course a massive spoken language advantage. Sure, they’d still lose in a fight, but then they’d (correctly!) tell their parents what is happening and we’d call animal control :)

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#252

Post by filoeleven » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 3:40 PM UTC

theflyingpigeon wrote: post #135

This is interesting. However, too bad a British university is working with a russian university

A British university working with a Russian university is far more beneficial to humanity than a British university working with a British weapons manufacturer.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#253

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 4:07 PM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #171

omnee wrote: post #167

We have come a long way from Descartes argument that animals are no more than automata. Which supported our unabashed exploitation of countless species. It is now abundantly clear that animals have their own phenomenological experience of the world, and their intelligence is part of a continuum, shaped mostly to survive in their niches. And some species demonstrate a higher level of general intelligence - something i…

Well, many argue that humans are no more than automata. So from that view Descartes argument holds, but the conclusion that such a life has no meaning does not.

Descartes couldn't figure out how humans weren't automata either. That's where his explanations start getting supernatural, and not particularly insightful. Any kook can babble on about an invisible pineal gland soul-thread.

edit: I think the interesting thing for people is how insight like Descartes' becomes useless when he tries to distinguish us from automata.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#254

Post by Terretta » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 4:25 PM UTC

jumploops wrote: post #102

Terretta wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another, I thought "mental template" is the perfect term, since it's neither image nor visual. I assume (since you mention points), you can recreate a geometric drawing (say, a floor plan, or a bicycle*)? What would you call that if not drawing from a mental template? * It seems, at least with bicycles, some people who do this "visually" are terrible at it: https://www.wired.com/2016/04/can-draw-bikes-memory-defin…

I actually quite like the term “mental template” but then they immediately equated it to an image. The best way I can describe my aphantasia is that I think about objects three dimensionally. There’s nothing visual about it, but I can think about the relation of “points” (really surfaces) in terms of the whole.

Yes. I think this is one that is non-euphemistically "differently abled".

Given a choice, I would trade the postcard recall ability for the ability to multi-dimensionally map concepts and then "see" the gaps, as if a periodic table missing some elements, so you know what key areas need working on even though (because) they aren't in evidence.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#255

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 4:36 PM UTC

tomalbrc wrote: post #142

evanmoran wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the sentiment, but human children who are 2 completely dominate all known animal intelligence. They can speak in sentences and use tools in complex ways. There may be studies that show a raven might use a stick to help it find food. Well, a two year old will carry a stool halfway across the house to reach the scissors that will open a bag of veggie straws :) At 3 they can recognize letters _easily_ and start l…

Difference being that the 2 year old human would not survive in the wild whereas most other species would easily after 2 years of age

Depends on the species. A few can run, hunt, and keep up with the group within hours of birth. Some, like marsupials, are born blind, deaf, with an inability to swallow unaided, looking like weird larvae, and must live in their mother's pockets until they can handle anything. People and cats are like marsupials.

As cats get older, their parents teach them survival skills (by showing interest in certain activities that the kittens imitate, not through more explicit instruction; there are cat studies that show this.) It takes kittens probably a year to mostly learn how to be cats. As people get older, we shove a summary and guide to 3000 years of written and tested guidance into them and show them how to brush their teeth properly. It takes about 15 years.

No big difference between humans and animals here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precociality_and_altriciality

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#256

Post by zackmorris » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

milleramp wrote: post #111

When I was little I had a small bb gun and would shoot cans in the backyard. A couple times i shot a crow and it would bounce off their strong chest and they would fly off seemingly unfazed. One time by pure chance I hit a crow in the neck and it died instantly, crashing down into my neighbor's yard. It was very shocking because I had not killed anything like that before. Immediately crows started circling my parents…

If only billionaires could learn such life lessons:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/jimmy-john-liautaud-huntin...

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#257

Post by devbent » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 5:02 PM UTC

zvmaz wrote: post #205

tetrisgm wrote: post #33

We're not the only intelligent life on earth. We cant even define intelligence or measure it meaningfully. If we accept that human children are smart, then we must accept that species at equivalent levels of cognition are as well. Elephants, crows, dolphins, octopi, chimps, orang utan are all clearly very smart, and more intelligent than a human child. Besides being biologically irrelevant, the separation between hum…

> Besides being biologically irrelevant, the separation between humans and animals creates this weird divide where we constantly assume that we are the only intelligent life. It feels to me a bit like thinking the earth is the center of the universe. Maybe one day we'll understand better what other minds are like and we'll understand better how we are not alone or special. Hopefully one day we will stop eating them,…

On one hand, eating another intelligent being seems to be an obvious moral wrong.

On the other hand, many of the creatures we eat will happily eat us if given a chance.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#258

Post by devbent » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

wruza wrote: post #152

tetrisgm wrote: post #33

We're not the only intelligent life on earth. We cant even define intelligence or measure it meaningfully. If we accept that human children are smart, then we must accept that species at equivalent levels of cognition are as well. Elephants, crows, dolphins, octopi, chimps, orang utan are all clearly very smart, and more intelligent than a human child. Besides being biologically irrelevant, the separation between hum…

That this “animals no conscious” is default feels like a sort of all-anthropic religion. I don’t get how one imagines being an animal and… it just exists as an automaton? And for some reason exactly humans are all conscious/intelligent, even brain damaged (in literal sense). I bet “those looking like me are very special” is somewhere in our genes, playing an obsolete role competing with other humanoid groups.

> I don’t get how one imagines being an animal and… it just exists as an automaton? And for some reason exactly humans are all conscious/intelligent,

So far evidence points to the simpler solution that all living creatures are automatons and that there is no mechanism by which self determinism can exist.

Wide acceptance of such a belief would pretty much ruin society so it is best if we all just go on pretending we are masters of our own destiny.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#259

Post by k4rli » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 5:26 PM UTC

ehnto wrote: post #139

Make sure you are kind to our crow friends, judging by the trajectory of these articles I fear their intelligence is growing as fast as ours is dropping. While that's definitely a joke, I wouldn't be that surprised by a human getting outwitted by a crow even today.

Any crow is definitely smarter than the average Tiktok user.

Re: Crows are even smarter than we thought

#260

Post by pmichaud » Sat, Aug 31, 2024, 5:30 PM UTC

natmaka wrote: post #76

tux1968 wrote: post #27

Have posted this before, but it really left an impression about crows, and the bond between their mates: Years ago I was putting out the garbage in the back alley behind our building where I lived on the 8th floor. A crow attacked me out of the blue. Distracted by the attack, the back door slammed shut behind me. Since my key was only good for the front door, I had to walk around the building. That damn crow followed…

We should establish that the crow would only 'attack' any human living in this flat (and neglect any other human walking by this back alley).

You’re not wrong, but crows definitely recognize individual people.